Episode 6
Kinfolklore: Stranger Things Sn.3 (Chapters 5-8)
Welcome back to Kinfolklore, where Andrea and Paul dive deep into the fantasy and sci-fi worlds we love. Few shows capture that blend of nostalgia, terror, and friendship quite like Stranger Things.
This episode, we’re rewinding all the way back to Hawkins, Indiana, Fall 1985. The mall is packed, the fireworks are flying, and the monsters are multiplying. In preparation for the final season dropping this November, Andrea and Paul are rewatching every episode from the very beginning, continuing their coverage here with Season 3, Chapters 5-8
Transcript
Yes, there's a lot of them.
Andrea:They're multiplying. I'm Andrea.
Paul:And I'm Paul. And these final chapters of season three. Take everything we love about the show. The friendships, the chaos, the nostalgia. Nostalgia.
And crank it up to 11. The My Players New host is on the loose. The Russians are closing in, and the kids are fighting battles that feel a lot more grown up than before.
The stakes have gotten a lot higher.
Andrea:Today we're covering season three, chapters five through eight. The back half of the season, where all of the secrets unravel, heroes rise, and fireworks turn extremely deadly.
If you haven't seen seen through chapter eight, hit pause, go back and binge. Come right back. And as always, this podcast is not spoiler free. We will be discussing all four seasons of Stranger Things.
We have not seen season five yet, so we can't talk about that, but everything else is fair game.
Paul:We all die, my strange little child friends. It's just a matter of how and when. But until that day, kinfolklore will have adult content.
So if you're here for the declaration of undying love, while the subject of that declaration of undying love is searching for monsters in the void. Or maybe you think that there's never a bad time to break out into a duet of the Never Ending Story. I don't know.
Maybe you've come to the right place. Let's go. I love that. I love that scene, by the way. We're going to talk about it more. It's absolutely.
Andrea:Oh, it's so good.
Paul:It's great. It's great. Oh, my gosh. Both of those seeds. So we're gonna talk about.
We'll kick this off with our summary of episode five and six, the Flayed and E Pluribus Unum. The Scoops troop. Steve, Dustin, Robin, Erica. They get trapped in a secret Russian elevator. Ah, they're screaming. It's like, whatever.
All I can think of is, damn, they're not gonna get home. Parents are going to be. What the hell?
Andrea:No, there's no worry about parents because Erica has Tina to cover for her. Why is there a 9 year old who needs a friend to cover for her anyway?
Paul:Gosh, it's so good.
Andrea:I just can't. I can't.
Paul:So they take this Russian elevator beneath Star Court, mixing claustrophobic terror with the perfect comedy. Hopper and Joyce and their Unlikely. Tag along Alexei. And escape. The Russian assassin that is looking a lot like Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Like, I mean, continues to just be everything that's. That has to. It's crazy. And they steal Todd's convertible. Yo, Todd is. Todd Gets an honorary award.
Like, this fucking convertible lasts very, very long in this plot. And because of Todd's. That's convertible. Many things happen. So, Todd, thank you for being a Good Samaritan.
Yes, you were urged by Hopper, but you still gave it up Grand Theft Auto style.
Andrea:It's good Hopper stole this card. Let's just be honest about it. The lawlessness in this season, it's just. Just complete lawlessness.
Paul:Gta. He's out here. Like, let's go. They head to Murray's place. Just tie this up for me because I don't remember any.
How do Hopper and Murray know each other? Do we know that Hopper. Murray knew each other before this moment?
Andrea:Oh, yes. Murray pops into the police station, right? In season two, right? And Hopper is like, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, okay. Aliens, Russian.
Like, totally gaslighting Murray. Like, totally gaslighting him.
Paul:Oh, my God. So, yeah, okay, so we do. All right, so they go to Murray's for some decoding and some sarcasm.
ould stuff into an old school:They melt into the Mind Flayer or whatever. I guess it is the Mind Flayer, the organism that's become the Mind Flayer. It's a weird blob, kind of so strange.
And they merge in and become one with one of the show's grossest creations. Is this the Mind Flayer? Is this just a blob? I have no idea what it is, but it's really gross. Alexei finally spills the truth.
He says the Russians are reopening the gate because there's a wound from last. The wound from last year started to close, but never really healed. Dustin and Erica bicker through tunnels. She is a nerd. Just for the record.
Steve gets tortured and Robin cracks jokes under truth serum. Love them. On the truth serum it is. Well, we'll get more into that. One of the season's most emotional sequences.
Elle enters Billy's mind, uncovering his tragic California childhood. Billy's dad is an. How did Max's mom end up with Him. Jesus. He's the worst. Also finds the flare's origin point.
Like proving that the monster feeds on trauma and not just flesh.
Andrea:Oh, that scene, that Billy scene is rough. It's also beautiful. It's one of their. Their best shot scenes. Episodes 7 and 8, the Bite and the Battle of Star Court.
The Fourth of July fireworks light up Hawkins while chaos erupts everywhere else. The Mind Flayer attacks Hopper's cabin first, biting Elle and leaving her significantly injured and weakened.
Scoops troop high on that truth serum, stumble into a Back to the Future screening. While Hopper, Joyce, Murray and Alexi head to the fair, which is where they think the kids are.
Alexi wins a carnival prize, has a taste of sweet freedom and dies. Dies.
Paul:Sad.
Andrea:So brutal.
Paul:And Murray was waving his. Maybe Murray's hyped and waving corn dogs as it goes down. I mean, the background scene of him waving the corn dogs was so. I was like, good Lord.
Murray has no idea what's about to happen. Really sad.
Andrea:It's so painful. Like it's a. It's an absolutely terrible.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:Alexi, we. We didn't get to really know you.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:Everything eventually converges at Starcourt Mall. The flare hunts the kids. Joyce and Hopper fight their way to the machine. And Elle has a hard time. She really struggles to use her powers.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:Dustin and Susie have saved the day with planks. Constant. And the unforgettable story. Never Ending Story theme so good.
Paul:Never so good. Oh, my God, it's so.
Andrea:I love that movie. Like all the time. I'm rediscovering, like, what were my gateways to fantasy.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:And now I'm like. Oh, actually, like when I was like five, I was obsessed with the Never Ending Story. Maybe that was it.
Paul:I loved it.
Andrea:I love it.
Paul:I think, like, it was. I think it was. It was the Never Ending Story. The Dark Crystal and the Hobbit for me. Besides Star. Star wars, obviously. And the Hobbit. Not the Hobbit.
Like the Hobbit. The moon. The cartoon. Yeah. And. And those. And like the freaking orcs were not as crazy as what they made it. And it.
They actually sang in the Hobbit cartoon. They freaking sang We Wear a chain, a heavy chain. And they had like a whole sing along. Everything had music back in the 80s. It just.
Everything was better with music. Okay, so Never Ending Story. That's. That's a. That's a. It's a banger. It's a banger.
Andrea:It's a. Such a. Such a great movie, but also such a Great song.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:Billy gets his redemption arc when Elle reminds him of his childhood joy. He sacrifices himself to save the others. In my opinion, he sacrifices himself because he doesn't want Max to see this, see him kill Elle. Basically.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:Hopper seemingly dies, which we. We said this was not a spoiler free podcast. As Joyce shuts down the machine, leaving Elle and Joyce absolutely devastated. The buyers leave.
Hawkins and Hopper had written a letter to L. Well, it was more of a. It was a speech, and it delivers on the emotional core of the season. Love, change, and the pain of growing up.
Paul:Yeah, that's a tough. That's a. That's a sequence for you. We're going to dive deeper into it.
Before we go any further, though, let's take some time to pour one out for Alexi, the happiest defector in TV history. Lover of Looney Tunes, master of dart throwing, popping balloons.
Can even overcome a fixed game and defeat American capitalism at the carnival games, as Murray laid it out. Let's also pour one out for the flayed, who melted into gooey monster masses as they exploded into, like, one big mass.
Billy Hargrove redeemed through his sacrifice. And we would be remiss if we didn't say rip to Todd father.
Andrea:Rip the Todd father. Many lives were saved because of that car.
Paul:Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I agree. This goes out to all our fallen homies. Yo, the mod will. Don't let the drink get like that, y'. All.
Andrea:So how is. How is Todd gonna explain that his car went up in the mall fire?
Paul:Did they ever be like, why was.
Andrea:Why was your car in the mall?
Paul:Why would your mall. Yeah, Todd, why would your car here, like, what were you doing here? I, I. My car was stolen. Promise. I didn't do it. Oh, my gosh.
So let's talk about Smirnoff, AKA Alexi, and how that whole thing jumps off with Joyce and Hopper. What do you think about that whole storyline?
Andrea:It was cute. Again, I'm not a huge fan of the Joyce Hopper storyline from this season. Yeah, the, The Russian elements of this story don't hit with me.
They just don't. Season four, it's even worse. Like, I don't. I get it. Like, the Cold War was going on during this period. They have to have some element.
But, like, I don't know. I don't. I don't feel like it's really played for anything other than, like, a way.
Like, to me, when I think of this season and how it ends, I'm fully thinking of the Meta piece of it, which is that David Harbour needed some time to go work on a movie in the mcu.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:So they weren't sure. They weren't sure when he would be available for season four or if he would be available at all. And I just don't care for it, but I do love Alexi.
Alexi's so funny. And the whole exchange over, like, the Slurpees, it's just really funny.
Paul:Yeah. Yeah.
Andrea:And also, like, a reminder, Alexi is like, kind of the first more lower.
Paul:Level.
Andrea:Worker who has gotten a story who hasn't been, like, played as a henchman. And it's a reminder that a lot of the people who were involved in this work, it wasn't by choice. They weren't necessarily bad people. They.
They thought that they were doing something for science or they. They thought that they had no. I mean, in Alexi's case, he had no choice. Like, it was very.
Made very clear to him that he needs to get this done or die.
Paul:Just like he saw the other scientist die. For sure.
Andrea:Yeah. And. And the way that the Russian soldiers become kind of just like props and just mass murder.
Like, Hopper kills so many people in this episode, and it's just like he doesn't even care. I think that, like, that that's why it doesn't.
The Alexi story, like, doesn't quite work as well because it's like one minute, Hopper can see that Joyce and Murray are devastated by Alexei's loss. But then in like, the next episode, Hopper just, like, murders a bunch of the soldiers. Like, I just. It doesn't.
This Russian plot never quite worked for me.
Paul:Yeah. You know what? I think that, you know, it's.
There was an old thing at tnt they used to have, like, their slogan used to be, like, movies for guys who like movies. And they would take all the craziest, like, movies that. From. From this time period and they would throw them on. It'd be Rocky, it'd be Die Hard.
It'd be like. Right.
And I feel like some ways in this season, this was that season where it was even to the Back to the Future, like, references and things coming in, it was like every movie they went overkill on the reference points. And so what I. What I like when I look at the Russian plot, it reminds me of Die Hard and the Terminator. And it reminds me like the whole.
Even though there was kids doing it, the whole going down the elevator and them going through this base and trying to figure it's very Die Hard, like, we're in a place we shouldn't be. We gotta move quietly.
Andrea:It also gives like the. Is it the Tom Clancy books?
Paul:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man, I know what you're talking about.
Andrea:The Jack is. Is that Jack Ryan?
Paul:Yeah, Jack Ryan and all that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andrea:Like it's giving that kind of.
Paul:Yeah. Born identity.
And even they even make a joke about it because they go, when Alexi says, you look like a very plump Rambo, you remind me of a very plump Rambo and I appreciate your bravery. It's like, it's like, oh, my gosh. It's like, that's like the joke, right?
Like, and they're making references and you could say, well, why does Alexi love Looney Tunes and all those stuff?
I think a lot of it is just that they're making reference to what American perception was in that time period of like how locked down media was and what people could watch in Russia and all those things. So I don't know. I dig the nostalgia, but I do think that there was. It was, it was.
This was a season where they went full in and they probably did a little too much. But then they course correct around 7 and 8. I mean, I feel like everything feels too much. And then seven or eight, they find a nice way to land it.
Episode seven and episode eight with the emotional beats. I mean, yeah, it's. It's so emotional. You just get so.
I found myself getting very worked up and just like, I can't believe this is happening to these kids and I know what's gonna happen. I'm reflecting back to when I first watched. I had no idea where this was going. Felt the same way.
And I'm watching it this week and I'm like, wow, I feel the same way I felt the first time I watched it. So I. I think they did a good job with that with the emotional beats.
Andrea:The end of the season actually caught me by surprise because. Well noted, this is not my favorite season. Even though I love the mall stuff. There's so much. There's so much good in here and.
But I felt like I need to rewatch it to appreciate it. Now I've seen this season. This is my third time actually, because I do remember rewatching it leading up to season four.
I like it more with each watch, but I had totally forgotten about what's kind of played as the epilogue when the kids are all saying goodbye. The amount of sobbing I did, even.
Paul:Though I knew, yeah, yeah, yeah, me too.
Andrea:It was just. It's so well done. And yes, it speaks to them. And I actually wonder, did they. Did they think maybe David harbor wasn't going to return at that point?
But it's so devastating to think of Will and El being pulled away from this core group that has their entire identities are wrapped around. This is their fam. This is their found family. And it kind of makes Joyce's choice. Not like it's not.
I. I can't understand it fully, but then when I think about it as an adult, I'm like, yeah. Joyce is like, yo, this town is cursed. It is now killed Bob. My son is irreparably changed. Hopper's gone now, too. We have.
I have to get the people I love the most out of here.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:So I get it, like, looking at it from through that lens. But, oh, those last scenes are so painful.
And it's not even the most painful thing to watch, like, Nancy and Jonathan say Goodby or to watch Mike and Elle. It's really just the whole. You're almost like watching a family breakup.
And to think that that's in the same season that the, like, goofy Russian plot is in, it's just. It feels disjointed to me.
Paul:Yeah, yeah, no, I can. I can get that. Because that's the stuff that I really walked away from this season. And I felt like there was a nuance to how they Even. How they.
How they capture pain and loss.
Like, there's this amazingly funny scene of Max and Lucas trolling Dustin about the Neverending Story and having to sing it while he's on the radio at the end.
And then there's this, like, heartbreaking scene of Max just sitting, actually reflecting by herself and obviously dealing with the trauma of what just happened.
So it gives you this balance, because at first, when I see her right after, I'm like, wow, she's rebounding well after losing her brother because she's laughing and joking. And then you see that, right?
Andrea:But you also see that Max doesn't share how she's feeling with everybody, which was really great foreshadowing because that then becomes a.
Paul:The plot point, right? Exactly. 100%. And so. And I thought it was.
And it was great that they let Elle and Mike have that moment where Elle had actually, like, heard exactly what he said. It. It humanized Elle in a way, because she's always like, I don't know what's going on. Can you explain that to me? Can you do.
And the fact is, like, she was in that grocery store and she was playing Mike on, like, I'm gonna make you say that you love me. Like, she knew already in that moment, and she's waiting.
And it was, like, so cool, like, to, like, see, like, that dynamic taking shape and just the letter from Hopper, man, oh, man, I'm getting choked up right now, like, thinking about, like, the talk he wanted to have before he threatened Mike with bottle. You know what I mean? Like, was so beautiful. It was so beautiful. And, yeah, it sets the tone for next season, but I just.
I just love the end of this season. And.
And I do feel that the mall, the crashing down again, like we talked about in the previous episode, the crashing down of the mall, the murder at the fair, and the loss of, like, the person who had given them the ability to save themselves in that place, that. The lost innocence in that moment of, like, oh, okay. This fight feels very different. It feels like we. We.
Not only the kids are maturing, but the mind flayer and this. This. This foe that they have is also maturing and expanding, and it's. And. And. And it's requiring things of them that.
That they didn't know that they had. The way they show up for Elle because she can't use her powers, like, the way that Lucas. Lucas is showing. Yeah.
I like the funny part for me, when they walk out the grocery store, he says, keep making fun of my plan, Max. Like, it's good. Is that. And it turns out his plan was freaking, like, really brilliant.
Andrea:Like, right when Lucas and Will are like, fireworks.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:And Max is like, I want a bowl.
Paul:I need a bowl. Like, what are you talking about?
Andrea:Yeah. She's like, can you not listen to directions, dummy?
Paul:Yeah. Yeah.
Andrea:It's so good. It's so good. It. In some ways, the Max Lucas dynamic kind of helps the fact that Dustin is MIA for them during this period.
Because usually it would be Dustin and Lucas going back and forth. But, yeah, Lucas really shows up. And, like, Lucas has such a big role that I had totally forgotten about.
So I apologize for my earlier rantings about Lucas being essentially useless because Lucas in the cabin, it's Lucas and Nancy that save Elle's life.
Paul:Yeah. Yeah.
Andrea:Lucas picks up the hatchet at Max's direction and. And gets pretty close to this monster and where I would have been with my slingshot, like, like.
And he's, like, hacking away at this thing so that it lets go of L. While Nancy is shooting it with a shotgun. Lucas has the idea about the fireworks. Like, Lucas is. He rises to the occasion on this team as soon as Elle is not able to.
And he's always been game to, like, fight back, but he. He hasn't always had the best ideas about how to do that. This. I was really impressed with him.
Paul:Yeah. The sink. The Sinclair children show up big in this. This episode.
Andrea:I mean, like, this is a very strong Sinclair run of episodes.
Paul:I agree. I totally agree. I think. I think Erica. Erica's like, realization, with the help of Dustin as a friend, that she is, in fact, a nerd.
Is absolutely one of the best at my shoot. That, like, he's like. He's like magical charms. Venatars.
Andrea:I said this last.
Paul:These are all nerds.
Andrea:My Little Ponies was. My Little Ponies was like. Was like a whole cinematic universe. And she's like, I'm not a nerd. Like, yes, you are, man.
Paul:Also hurts you skills also. Yeah. Just. I mean, but her skills and finding the weapon. Finding the weapon to free. I mean, because Steve won a fight. Hold on.
We have to give it to him. Steve wins his first fight in this season. Like, it's his first fight he ever won. But then he gets his ass whooped.
Andrea:Like, again, again for the third season in a row. Steve gets his ass absolutely handed to him. And the thing is, you gotta.
You have to acknowledge that Steve is brave because he's had his ass beat at least three times that we know of. And he continually is like, no, put me in, coach. I want to be first.
Paul:I'm ready to go. He's.
Andrea:He's had his ass beat by Jonathan, Billy, and now some Russians.
Paul:Yeah. I mean, look, and the funny thing is he's telling mostly the truth when they're talking to the Russians. But the Russians don't believe him. Right?
Like, they don't. They. So he's getting his ass whooped for actually doing what they're asking him, but they don't believe him. Right. So, I mean, it's a really good run.
I think. I think like, the heart of the. The whole story again, is. Is becoming a little bit more aware of who you are and dealing with your shared trauma.
Even at the end, you know, when you get. When you get Nancy and Jonathan talking and they're like, you know, a wise man talking about Murray said that we have a trauma bond.
And basically it's like, you know, but why not add a little bit more trauma? Little do they know that that's coming.
But the point is that it's fascinating to see how they're unpacking this whole, like, traumatic experiences, you know, self awareness and growth and the law and what that means. It's Almost like to me, this episode, this episode, this season is the puberty episode is the puberty season.
It's like in the sense that you are coming into. They're no longer just like little kids that we get. They're like, okay, we are coming into the awareness of who we are as people.
It's like a rite of passage. Like, that's a better way.
It's a rite of passage episode season of like what you would see people go through when they trans make that transition from childhood to like young, Young adulthood or teenagerhood, you know.
Andrea:Yeah. The, the complexity of the, all the relationships is on display.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:And that again, that's kind of why there's a little bit of discordance in the season.
Because while the, the little kids as we, the, the party, as we think of them are growing into more complex emotions, what we're seeing from Hopper and Joyce and Nancy and Jonathan is they're being a little immature. Not as self aware and then. But we, we do get from Stephen, Robin possibly the best scene of this whole series.
I love this scene, like possibly the best writing that they've done on this series, which is crazy because there's no magic involved. But we get this beautiful moment between Steve and Robin that's also layered and complex. Right.
Like Steve comes into that conversation as immature Steve and then he exits that conversation as a new person.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:And it's one of the reasons that I love that scene so much. I've watched it. That's actually the scene I probably watched the most in Stranger Things.
Although the first, the first scene where Will gets kidnapped. Well, Will disappears. I've watched a bunch of times because I've. But that's like. I'm trying to unpack what's happening in that scene.
Whereas with the, the, the bathroom scene, it's just a beautiful. Like, you see what.
It's very plain what's happening in that scene and you just love it right away because Robin and Steve's relationship goes from co workers to trauma bonded friends. Like everybody in this story, it becomes a trauma bonded friend. Then Steve gets friend zoned. Right. That's how it could have been written that Steve.
But it doesn't get written that way. It gets written as like Steve shows up for Robin in a way that I don't think Robin would have exposed herself had she not been under the truth serum.
That's like the. So like almost that makes the Russian plot worthy almost. Because Robin gets to have this moment.
Because you and I know that in the 80s coming out was Extremely dangerous.
Paul:Dangerous. Yeah.
Andrea:I mean, it's still dangerous today, but it was even more. More dangerous. This was before there were any, like, mainstream depictions of queer people on television.
Would Robin have done this if she didn't have the truth serum? I don't think so. I think being high as a kite is part of the reason she does it.
Paul:Yeah. And I think this. I mean, it's set up beautifully.
When they're inside, when they're captured down in the bunker, and she tells him the whole story about the classroom and him sitting in front of her. And you as an audience, you just assume, oh, she had a crush on Steve. You know what I mean? Like, you don't get the other layer of the.
Of any of the complexity until the bathroom scene. And just to see him, you know, I don't know that season one, Steve responds the same way. Right. Like, so it was all this. All these levels of like.
Of, like, growth that we see happen throughout the seasons, but also him processing in real time. And it's, like you said, showing up for Robin in. In the sense of, like, oh, yeah, okay, like, then you're still my homie.
Like, we're still going through all of this. And let's, like, it was. It was great.
Andrea:He makes a joke to put her at ease. Right away. He's like, Tammy Thompson.
Paul:Yeah, exactly. She sounds like a Muppet. She sings like a Muppet. Oh, my God, it was great. It's one of my favorite.
Andrea:It's so good. It's so good. Like, I also had a friend who came out to me when I was in high school, and, like, we continue to be friends.
It was, you know, like, it wasn't a.
It wasn't even that awkward of a conversation because in some ways, I. I knew already, but I wish I would have made a joke like this to kind of bring. You know, they must have been so anxious to have that conversation with me, not knowing how I would react.
I wish I could have put them at ease in this way instead of being just like, yeah, okay.
Paul:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andrea:I wish.
I wish I had had the instinct to not make light of it, but to find a way through humor to bring the stakes down a little bit so that they knew that, like, it didn't change any. Like, for. For Steve, so many things are changing.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:In his mind, in that, like, there's an oh, oh. There's like, a long pause. And yet he does. He actually moves closer to Robin.
Which is one of my favorite things about it, is instead of, like, pulling Away, he actually inches like a little bit closer and then he makes a joke and it's just, I, if you weren't already team Steve Harrington.
Paul:Yeah, agreed. And I, and I.
Andrea:How could you. This is why the fandom will riot if something happens to Steve in season five.
Paul:Of course, I mean, like, he's grown so much since we first met Steve.
And, and this is again, that self awareness that we've talked about throughout coverage of the show that he, that he has in the sense that he, he's also growing not just self awareness, but like awareness of those around him and how his actions may impact them and in real time to be able to, you know, processing all of that.
But also I think why it resonates so much is because it's one of the moments where we see Steve not make it about him in an actual interpersonal relationship. This was not about, oh, I just tried to ask you out. And oh, I feel crazy.
He could, that could have been a lot of like, oh, I feel so bad, I should have this and that. And I, I, I, I. He made the whole, the action after that point, after he says, I'm processed. I'm just thinking like, right.
He makes the whole interaction about Robin after that, you know, And I think that's what's so beautiful about it, you know?
Andrea:Yeah, he. This is a tremendously written scene. I have to give it to them.
Season three, while a lot of people criticize it, didn't really advance the like, magical elements of the story very much. That's okay. That's almost okay because we get some of the most emotional scenes. We get Mike and Will in the earlier episodes.
I think that's episode, episode two or three. We get this one, we get the. What's essentially played as the epilogue at the end.
Like, we get real, real high stakes conversations between these characters. And because we love them, they're also high stakes convers for us.
Paul:Yeah, 100%. 100%. And one of the.
Andrea:And then we, we also get the Billy L. Entering Billy's story and coming out kind of unchanged. I mean, kind of changed from it.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:And that is foreshadowing for season four, of course, but also something new that the, the story hadn't really done before, which was take us into the mind of our villain.
Paul:So let me ask you a question about this, because there's a very powerful scene that changes what Billy's about to do.
He's sacrificing Elle at that moment, which you can clearly see that this was part of their plan, was to get Elle off the board, not only by doing, but also consuming her powers. And. And then through Elle, having traveled to his core pain, his core memory, she speaks to the beauty and beauty in the memories that she saw.
And it penetrates whatever trance. So is she. Is it just her words, or has she learned how to get within the mind of another person in that kind of way?
Through her sister, through this traveling through the void, through the touching of Billy? Is this a new power she's developing, or is this just like. I'm using my words right now, and it's penetrating you because it's hitting your memory.
I couldn't make. I want to go. I land on the second. Not that it's a new kind of power, but I don't want to totally dismiss the possibility of the first yet.
Andrea:Oh, that's a really good question. I had just assumed that it was the second, which was that enough of Billy is in there.
And the other thing, too, is that Billy seems unaware in that moment that. That Elle has been in his mind.
Paul:Right.
Andrea:Which is fascinating because what. After she did that, Billy hijacked the. She thought that she was no longer in his mind, but she was still in his mind. He.
He kind of hijacked the void, right?
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:So that was the mind flayer. When. When she says those things to Billy, Billy seems a little bit confused about, like, how she knows these things about him.
I think we're supposed to take that there was just enough of Billy in there that. Those words, the reminder of his humanity.
And I think it's played well with Max yelling in the background that that just brings him to the present moment, and he realizes this is actually not who I want to be. And I think a mistake that the mind flayer made with Billy was not taking him over totally and completely.
The mind flayer in facts, Billy, but doesn't fully. He still has some agency and he he weaponizes that when. When it pleases him. You see that in the sauna scene, right?
I think the mind flayer made a mistake that would have made more sense to take him over completely the way it takes over the flayed it. There's like a. A switch, right?
We see it in the fair scene where the mind flayer is like, all right, kiddos, we gotta go get l. And summons all of these people who are flayed, and they all go to the mill and just become goop. I think that probably would have been smarter than leaving some piece of Billy still in there and some piece of Heather, you know?
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:Like.
Paul:Yeah, I think. I think that's. I totally agree with you that that's a big mistake of the Mind Flayer.
But I think another mistake was this is where I'm going with it to this place. And I've thought about this a lot because I was watching this scene today is.
It's not lost on me that that conversation happens after the Mind Flayer has bit her and infiltrated underneath her skin.
So the Mind Flayer has this ability and so in trying to remove her powers to like move him and blase, blah, blah, does l also gain some of his abilities? More than we know.
Andrea:Oh, I think only time will tell.
Paul:Right? Like, this is what I'm. This is. So this is where my brain is going is. I'm like, wait, hold on. How does she do that? Really?
Because he was totally hell bent on destroying her before that.
And, and, and I think that they've done this a lot in this show where you can perceive something being one way, where we take away the, the, the, the that level of understanding of like. Yeah, well, obviously she just talked to Billy and Billy just enough of him was in there and he went and he'd sacrificed himself.
But then they go back and they remix that later. You're like, holy. So I'm leaving out on the board for myself until otherwise, you know what I mean?
Andrea:Like, so I don't think it's a leap at all. It's no more of a leap for you to make that assumption than all of the many tinfoil hat theories I have about Holly Wheeler. Right.
There's actually pretty strong evidence that the show builds on Elle's powers as. As we go. And so, yeah, I could tell. I wonder. That's like a really good point because that slug was in her. She did get it out, but.
So the slug that was in Will also came out.
Paul:Came out and yet he still has.
Andrea:He still ended up being possessed. So I think that's a really good point.
Paul:Yeah. So. So let's talk about Holly. Like, so you. Like, there's evidence of Holly in this run of episodes.
The first thing that comes to mind is her seeing the trees moving while the fireworks are going off and her calling her parents attention to it, to which they hand wave. She's been very present throughout more than in Rewatch. You see that there's things that, that you notice when Holly shows up.
Something pivotal is about to happen. What do you think? What do you. What do you want to say about Holly Wheeler?
Andrea:I don't know for sure. All I'm saying is we discovered today from friend of the pod Dania, who was just doing her regular shopping, that there is a Holly Wheeler Funko Pop.
Paul:Okay, okay.
Andrea:This is suspicious. Yeah, suspicious.
Paul:We need your tinfoil hat now.
Andrea:This is suspicious. Suspicious. So for them to roll out a Holly Wheeler now.
Okay, so let me just say for the record, I am extremely familiar with the many Funko Pops that were available up to last year. I literally had a Stranger Things advent Funko calendar. Like, I've seen many of the variations of the Funkos available.
There was not a Holly Wheeler one before that. That seems suspicious.
Paul:There were mult.
Andrea:There's multiple mind flayers, by the way, but never a Holly.
Paul:There's also a detail that you share that. That. That our friend in a pod Dania shared with you that you share with me that it's missing a shoe.
Andrea:Missing a shoe. Why is Holly missing a shoe?
Paul:No clue. We need to know.
Andrea:Where's her other shoe?
Paul:Where is the other shoe? Why is Holly Wheeler's Funko pop missing a shoe? Duffers, let us know. Anyone, Anyone who has a theory, let us know.
Andrea:Yeah, I would love to hear other people's theories. I think that like the most common theory is like, something big is going to happen to Holly in this season. But like, why? Why Holly?
If all the why not. Again, I'm going to continue to say this. Why not? Erica? Yeah, like why of all of the. The many side characters, why specifically Holly? Why have.
Why have Holly be the. The only person at the fair to notice a mind flayer in an enormous monster? By the way, like, as it was forming, I was like, now how you gonna.
How are you gonna hide this big ass monster is just gonna walk through Hawkins?
Paul:Yeah, it's crazy. We've gone from the demagorgo that she.
Andrea:She will tries to communicate with Holly in season one from the Upside down.
Paul:Yeah. Yeah.
Andrea:So what's going on, Holly? What's good?
Paul:I want to see that. That. Remember that's the scene that we talked about that kind of was a toss back to like Poltergeist and all of that. Right? Why. What is.
What's the deal with that? Like, why do you think that. That. Why. Why do you think she's pivotal?
Andrea:I don't know. And. And the actress who plays Holly has been. This will be the third version of Holly we're getting in this show.
So they have recasted Holly a second time, in my opinion, so that she can have a larger role to play. So Maybe this season we don't get a new character. Right. There's no more Eddie, Max, or Robin. Maybe Holly just becomes more important to the plot.
They've been.
There's been little hints that we should pay more attention to Holly the whole time, but it also feels like it's entirely possible that because they wrote these other scenes and they're going to give them significance now so that they're. It's actually the other way around. They were like, oh, we did this scene where Holly and Will were communicating in season one.
And then Joyce interrupts it. Maybe we can build on that. I'm not sure what the. The connection will be. We'll have to see.
There is some speculation that Karen is actually Bob Newey newbies. Sister Patty Newby.
Paul:Karen is Patty Newby. That would make it make more sense. That right there would make it more.
Andrea:I don't. I don't think.
It's, like, I'm almost 100 certain that that's not true, but I have seen fans speculating that Karen Wheeler is Patty Newby, and I. I cannot debunk it without a spoiler. So I'm not gonna do it.
Paul:But a spoiler from the play.
Andrea:Yeah.
Paul:Okay. Because we just say we're.
Andrea:I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna do it. But I. Yeah, it's. I'm almost a hundred percent sure that that's not possible.
But I'm just saying that you're not the only one looking for people's origin stories.
Paul:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, it just seems to make sense. I mean, I don't know.
One story we don't need any help figuring out is that everybody needs a Murray in their life. Everyone.
Like, the reason why I say that is, you know, there's many times where people just have, like, unrequited love tension between two people where you could cut it with a knife, but nobody says anything. Murray is 2 for 2. He's on it. He's on a. He's on a 20 run. He's, like, two games away from a sweep.
He literally got Nancy and Jonathan on the right track. And then he's like, come on, Hopper and Joyce, let's go. Like, what do you guys do?
Can you guys either pull over on the side of the road and handle your business and we'll just wait over here? Which is a wild thing to say in the middle of everything else they're dealing with, or you guys just hush?
Okay, I need you to take it down a couple of notches. No more Bickering. It was cute and all, but I need you to calm it down. Just pull it back. And then even Alexi is laughing.
Andrea:It's the whole Murray, Joyce, Alexi, all of that is so funny.
Paul:It's so good.
Andrea:Like, I don't like the Russian plot, but I have to objectively acknowledge that it's funny. It gives us so many laughs. Like. Like when. When Hopper calls for help and he gets the Philadelphia Library. And then Joyce.
First of all, Murray is completely crashing out. He's like, don't tell them my phone number. Like, what are we doing? What is going on? I have to move now.
Paul:You compromise me. Oh, my God.
Andrea:But then when Joyce calls back and she is like, I don't think that he has demonstrated the urgency in which we need support here. Is it.
Paul:The whole.
Andrea:That whole bit is hilarious.
Paul:And then he says. And then he tries to. He was like. She's like, don't you dare patronize me. Like, listen, here's what you're gonna do. You're gonna get off your ass.
You're gonna go down the hall. You're gonna let him know right now. Oh, my God, it's so good.
Andrea:Oh, it's so funny. Like, all of that stuff is played for laughs, and they. They pay off pretty well because I was cracking up that whole scene.
Paul:Yeah, no, it's great. It's super great. And, yeah, I think. I think, like, you know, in some of those laughs, like, make it where the heavy stuff, when it hits it.
It hits more. It's more. It's more impactful. Like, you know, when Alexi dies, it's. It's like, damn, you really. You really cared about. You start to care about him.
And then, like, when. When Hopper dies and the two of them and Murray comes and, like, oh, we got to get out of here. I think, like, that's, like.
You know, you see, like, there's a bond between Murray and. And. And Joyce as well as. As they try to escape from the. The. The Russian base. So, yeah, no, there's some good stuff. I really. I really do.
I really do enjoy. Enjoy the season.
What do you think of the relationship in totality, from keep the door 3 inches open all the way to the way that it ends with them saying goodbye and making holiday plans with Mike and Elle. Like, what do you think of this arc?
Andrea:I think this is the beginning of the. The Will and Mike shippers. I just. I have so many issues with the mic not being able to tell Elle to his. Her face that he loves her.
It's Just like, such a. A weird plot line that I think is, like, done for a reason. Like, I'm not saying that this is sloppily done.
I'm just saying that I think it's a little. A little bit, like, creates this character a mic that I don't particularly like.
So this is connected to another piece which is protecting Elle and Elle's agency. And then there's this romantic element. And this is.
I think this is a normal dynamic, especially in a first relationship where there's a gendered piece of it where, like, Mike is protecting El to. Almost to a fault like, that Max and Nancy both call him on it. And when Max and Nancy are calling him on it because Nancy's totally perplexed.
She's like, I don't understand why you're acting this way. Because Elle knows her powers better than anybody else.
Paul:Right? Yeah.
Andrea:And that's when Mike blurts out the. But I. I can't lose her again because I love her.
But then there's this, like, tension about him saying it to her that then plays out more in season four where Elle is like, dude, all of your letters say from Mike, not love Mike from Mike. Like, what. What is the. What is the deal here? And this is where all the people who are like, does he have a thing for Will? Instead, this is.
This gives them evidence and that maybe they're right. I don't know what's in store for this story. I just don't feel like because of how.
How Mike and Lucas are played as very traditional boys, I just don't see that that's what they're writing. What it feels like to me that they're writing is these two boys who are not con. Are not comfortable emoting. They're more.
They're more like Steve than Jonathan. Jonathan, I think, would tell Nancy once he felt safe. Yeah, I have feelings for you. He'd be nervous about it. But he. Once it's.
Once it's out in the open, he has no issue of it. I think Mike is more played as like. And Lucas is. Are more played as, like, typical guys. Guys right there. He just doesn't have the vocabulary.
It makes him nervous. It's hard for him to say. That said, maybe that's how just my interpretation and.
And the truth is that they are building up this Mike and Will relationship. I don't. I can't say. But I do think that dragging out the. The L word, you know, conversation for over multiple seasons is confusing.
Paul:Yeah, I know.
I just don't feel like, kids that are, like, playing D and D and, like, you know, into all these different fantasy tropes and things that they're, like, all the things that they've expressed that they're into science. He would have. He would lack the vocabulary. You know what I mean? Like. Or lack the ability to, like, express his feelings. I. I just kind of feel they.
It wouldn't quite play out this way. So there may be something else that they're trying to tell us with this too. So I. I get why people are a little confused and. And.
Or are thinking, okay, there's another reason for this, and there's some. There's a theory behind it. I still think we're heading. I still think we don't.
I mean, depends on what we think is, like, a happy ending we're not heading to, like, in my opinion, Mike and Elle get together and they all live happily ever after. That's not where we're heading. You know what I mean? Like, I don't. I don't see that as, like, where.
Andrea:We'Re heading, so I absolutely don't. I think they've. They've put enough.
I think they've written enough into actually season four to show us that that relationship has maybe run its course. But that said, Mike is so protective of El this. This season, and somebody had to be.
You know, he says that Max is very careless with El's powers, but he kind of doesn't talk specifically about how, so. He talks about the fact that Max had El spy on him and Lucas. Whatever. Right. But that's not the carelessness.
The carelessness actually is that Elle becomes depleted whenever she uses her powers. And that's what Mike is actually talking about. So the example he gives is not great.
But I think of, like, when Elle says to Hopper at the end, I need to. I need to recharge. Basically, I'm weak, but I. I will recharge, I think, is how she puts it. Yeah, that's what Mike was talking about. Like, she.
She can do too much, and she does so much in this span.
And it's like, there's points where I'm like, if they had just let her preserve her power, then maybe we wouldn't be in this situation where she essentially has no power.
Paul:Yeah. I mean, what's going on with that?
Do you think it's that the Mind Flayer got under her skin and then, like, somehow they got rid of the flower because of access to her blood? Or do you think, like, there's something. I. I know we know from season four a little bit more. But, like, what. What. What was your take at this point?
And then what do you think?
Andrea:My take at this point was that she was just totally depleted from. From the ordeal in the supermarket. I mean, at the cabin. Then she does the thing with the car.
I just thought at the time, I just thought she was tired from what happens later.
I think we know that there's an emotional block happening here, but also what Billy says to her before they come after them in the cabin is that we did this. We built this to come after you. So it almost makes you think that their intention is to just deplete her until she can't fight back.
And we, you know, we find out later why the Mind Flayer might have a grudge against Al.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:If Vecna is the Mind Flayer. Right, right. Then we find out exactly why he's pissed. Because she's an actual threat to him.
Paul:Right.
Andrea:She's the one who banished him. But I think I thought it this. When I had first watched it, I had assumed Elle was just tired.
I didn't actually know she wasn't gonna have powers in season four.
Paul:Four. Right, right.
Andrea:I thought she would just be, like, exhausted, recharging. Obviously, losing Hopper was going to be a big thing, but I didn't. I didn't expect that in season four, she would be.
You know, we'd have that horrible scene with the. The bully whose name I forget, where Al just doesn't have any power.
Paul:Yeah. Which. It didn't stop her. Jeez. She.
Andrea:She had other powers. Violence.
Paul:Oh, man. Look. So, I mean, I think, like, it's been interesting to see how all these things are evolving.
I think, you know, one of the things we love about this show is the cross between the supernatural and the scientific. And it shows up really interestingly in how the Mind Flayer keeps evolving or this. This keeps evolving.
Like, you know, season one, we got a demogorgon terrorizing the town. Season two, will becomes, like, basically a vector for the Mind Flayer. Now, season three, Mind Flayer uses similar tricks, but he's scaling.
You know, he's like, learning. Learning how to scale his business. So he's been able to, like, infect multiple people in the town and build, like, something.
And as you said, it's very fascinating how we're seeing this evolve and then we also learn something. We learn that, as we just spoke about, that in totality, all of this is being built over time to come for Elle.
Like, that's what the building of this is. What are some of the themes that really stick out to you as we. As we start to close out?
Andrea:Wait. There was one more thing I wanted to talk about before we close out, because I'm not sure. I can't remember now if this is an issue in season four.
Paul:Okay.
Andrea:This is going to be very shallow.
Paul:I already know where this is going.
Andrea:Before we discuss themes, we have to discuss why the makeup artist keeps doing Winona Ryder dirty. What is going on with Joyce's makeup in this season? Actually, in all the seasons, why does Joyce have to look like this?
Paul:I mean, it's not affecting. Hop. Hop is all in. He's all in about. He's asked her out multiple times. Charlie wanted to meet her at dinner. She stood him up.
The man has hit the bottle over it.
Andrea:Because Joyce is an intelligent and beautiful woman. That is why I would like them to. To treat her face with some respect. This woman's face is contoured to the point of distortion.
She's wearing this blush that's totally inappropriate for her skin tone. And this is not 90s. I mean, 80s makeup. Karen Wheeler, Nancy, and Robin have very appropriate 80s makeup on.
Paul:Okay. Okay.
Andrea:So I just had to say that because I cannot continue without addressing the elephant in the room, which is that I find Joyce's makeup very distracting. I'm hoping that when I begin my rewatch of season four that it will not be an issue.
But I just need to say it, because in season three in particular, she's wearing this berry colored blush. It's not. Sweetie, that's not for you.
Paul:This is important. I like.
Andrea:This is not for you.
Paul:It suspect did not suspend the disbelief. You're like, no, no, I don't believe this. She would not wear this.
Andrea:Like the Sinclair's lacks parenting. It takes me completely out of the story. Okay, The. The Sinclair's.
ontour on Joyce's face in the: Paul:This is proof again of the parallel nature of Erica Sinclair and Andrea. All right, let me tell you why. Because Dustin goes off about this.
He's like, wait, so you believe Elle, the mind flayer, all this, but you don't believe that your brother was there? Lucas. He was like, no, exactly. That's exactly what I'm saying Andrew's like seeing all this other supernatural and she's like, no, the blush is in.
Is. She's. No, she would never wear that.
Andrea:Absolutely would never wear that. I was. I was there in the 90s. Okay. So I remember.
Paul:That's great.
Andrea:Looking through magazines. Back then, women did not wear pale. Women did not wear berry colored blush. Anyway, I'm done. I'm done ranting about this. Thank you.
And thank you to all of our listeners, except for the ones who have now skipped 30 seconds ahead multiple times.
Paul:No, on the real old school listeners.
Andrea:Will know I get about this about certain things with the Witcher. It was.
Paul:It was a traveling like, the travel time was great. The travel time through the continent was. Is one of my all time faves. Oh, my gosh.
If you want a good time, go and listen to the Witcher episodes and hear Andrea crash out about how fast everybody gets to and from different places.
Andrea:Zooming around the continent. Just zoom just from one place to the next in. In a half a day, two hours. It's insane.
Anyone who's played the Witcher game absolutely knows that it takes you forever to get from city to city. Okay. I did not spend hours on the back of roach for them to disrespect the length of this is a huge continent. Anyway, we're digressing.
We're digressing.
Paul:It's so good. I love this. And you know what? Who knows?
Maybe there are listeners that would like more evaluation of makeup or get ready with me, like content about like different, different characters that we're watching. Please. We are here to. We are here to accommodate. I love it. I absolutely love it.
Andrea:That would be really funny if Millie, Bobby Brown, I believe, has a cosmetics company. That's really, really funny. If she's like, get ready with me while I fight Vecna, it would be really good. I will watch it. I would totally watch that.
She always looks great. I would be like, I would love to see your makeup routine, Millie. Let's go.
Paul:Oh, my gosh. This is. That's amazing. That is hilarious. Get ready with me while I fight back, though. So.
All right, themes, I guess the major theme for me is friendship and the friendships that grow and evolve over time. The ways that new friendships come into the fray. I love that.
I love even this, you know, this new budding friendship that we just spoke, that we spoke about with Steve and Robin. Robin gets Steve a job. Steve is about to not get a job. He's about to be out on his ass. It wasn't gonna happen.
But she gets him a job at the new place now that the mall's burned down. You know, like these new kind of like friendships, long standing friendships that are evolving and changing.
The new friendship between, let's be honest, Max and Elle, like, really bonded during this season. It became really, really close. And, you know, like, it's. It's not anybody else in the party that's comforting Max.
When Billy dies, it is l holding her and telling her it's gonna be okay. And it's so. I just really love this, you know, friendship, trust.
The old pairs, the new pairs, new people that we come to care about that are joining the party. Absolutely amazing stuff. What do you. What do you.
Andrea:Yeah, that. I totally agree. The.
The way that we get two friendships that are so significant in this season alone, we get the evolution of the Max and Elle relationship, which has not always been gone smoothly. You know, it's. Elle was very much hating being a hater, being a full on hater.
And then we also get the Robin and Steve relationship, which is, again, one of the best. And the. And we. The beauty of Steve and Robin is we continue to retain the Steve and Dustin.
And this is something that I just kind of thought about, but it's so true. It's like Steve is such a good representation of that People.
Certain people can have certain impacts on you at certain times if you meet them at the right time.
Like you said, Steve in season one reacts totally different to the relationship that him and Robin eventually develop after she confides in him and shows her. Her vulnerable, true self to him. In order for that Steve to exist, Nancy has to dump him. But Nancy has to be in his life to begin with.
So Nancy, he has to see Nancy's love and acceptance for Barb and willingness to fight for her. And then Nancy has to let him go essentially over that, right. Call him out on his own, as she puts it.
He has to have that moment which comes earlier where he apologizes to Jonathan even though Jonathan beat his ass. He has to become friends, not. Not just the babysitter, but friends with Dustin. Him and Dustin are friends. There's real love there.
He drops Dustin off at the, The. The. The winter dance that they had, the snowball. So it's a reminder that, like, we.
As these relationships all come together, they get tested, they get, you know, forged under duress. It's a reminder that all these different players in our lives play a different role.
And this is actually one of the things that I think is holding Will back a Little bit is that he is still in that core group and he is not making these other connections, but they're all growing based on their relationships with these new people and letting them in. And so I want to see that growth in Will. I want him to have. I want him to treat 11 like in season four. I want him to treat 11 like that's his sister.
But we don't quite get there yet. So. And I think that's intentional. I think that's how Will is written for a reason.
But yes, I absolutely think that the friendships, the relationships are all tested this season in a way that is. Prepares them for season four. Cause season four is wild.
Paul:Wild. Yeah.
Andrea:And from the jump, like season four, I remember episode one. I was like, oh, it's like that. There's no filler episode.
Paul:Oh my gosh. There'll be lots of humming, running up that hill. Deal with God. It'll. It'll be happening for sure. It's one of my. One of the favorites. So what do you.
I know we know what happens in season four, but what are your predictions for the overall series, if you have any, based off of this season?
Andrea:I think that it's not a mistake that they're reminding us that Will still has that connection to the mind Flayer.
Paul:Yeah, I agree.
Andrea:I'm kind of a broken record on this. Something big is going to happen. Be revealed about Will.
So I'm curious to see how that interacts with the Holly conspiracies that we've been talking about. Elle does eventually get her powers back. Right. But how she uses them is really important from now on. And Will we.
I guess I'm worried that Elle is going to get caught up in invading someone's mind again. I think the thing that Mike diagnosed about L. That Max and Nancy don't think about is that she is willing to die.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:For these other people. And she will. She will deplete herself.
And so if I'm looking at, like, what I could take from season three and for forgetting everything I know about season four, or at least putting it aside for a moment, I wonder the foreshadowing of Elle pressing herself too hard, pushing too hard, and also being hunted. Elle, to this point has always been kind of a secret weapon. She's. She's always there for the surprise.
But now that we know that Vecna is very much hunting her and that is able to do so with sort of the same psychic powers that she has. That's scary. That. That. That makes Ella target now.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:And. And it's not just that she's a weapon that can be deployed, but I also think that Will can also be a weapon or a target.
So I, I, I think they remind us that Will is sort of touched by the Mind Flayer, that there's some remnants there for a reason. I don't think that, that, that connection is unimportant.
Paul:Yeah, I agree with you. I think, like, my, my, like just adding on top of what you're saying, I think the other thing that I kind of predict is, well, what we learned.
And then I'll go to. My prediction is that all of this is being built because of Vecna, who we find out who Vecna is in the next season.
His want to hunt and bring down El based on what she did to even create the circumstances of, like, banishing him to this realm. Right.
The thing that's fascinating to me is from the very beginning we talked about what was happening inside of the buyer's home before Elle saw Will, before she even knew. Basically saw Will, and then tells them that she saw Will. And my feeling about that and overall is, what if that was the plan from the beginning?
What if Vecna knew he wasn't strong enough to be able to fight her at the very beginning?
So abducting Will was the best way to kind of do this thing that has systematically been happening of getting stronger and stronger and stronger and stronger. Every time they closed the hole, he had to know, well, she'll probably close the hole or she'll probably do this thing right.
I know I'm not going to win each one of these times. But every time, you know, they say, you know, failure isn't failure. It's an opportunity for learning. Like you learn something new.
So this whole time has been about learning their vulnerabilities, learning what they do.
And so my prediction is that those lessons that the Mind Flayer at this point and what we know becomes Vecna get are going to be implemented to start bringing down members of the party. I think, in my opinion.
Andrea:Yeah. If they're all targets because Elle cares about them.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:And he can lure her into a trap.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:Using them. And Elle acknowledges the whole Billy thing is a trap. She knows that, but she still does it.
Which again, is what Mike was diagnosing about her that the others didn't see. But I totally agree with you that something is awry here that we don't fully see.
And I've also wondered, with all the clock image imagery, we're about to be assaulted with in season four, is there some time manipulation going on? Is there some. Is Vecna learning in real time, or is Vecna going manipulating time after seeing how things have played out?
Are we in a situation where there's multiple versions of this playing out? And would that be. I'd also be curious how audiences react to that. Again, we've had the Flea and the acrobat.
We've had all of this stuff that told us there's multiple dimensions in this story. Would the audience be cool if there are multiple timelines playing out? And so I want to see how.
And maybe that's why the run times of these episodes are long. Because, you know, when you get a time travel situation, you got to spend more time. You got to spend a lot of time explaining it.
it came out in the summer of: Paul:I'm so glad you said that, because that was something that blew my mind. Like, as they were. They were blowing my mind as they were on their little juiced up rants when they're drinking water and they're talking about it.
And Robin says something in that. That. That thing that shows her acuity. But also I thought, could this be an Easter egg? Later? Is that. He says, well, why is.
If it's about them going, was that guy trying to sleep with his mom? And she's all like, well, yeah, but that's. He's like, she's trying to hook up with him because he's back in the past.
And he goes, well, then if he's in the past, why is it called Back to the Future? And she says, because in the past, his present is the future. And I said, oh, shit. Like, could that be an Easter egg? And I was like, oh. So, like.
So I was like, oh. And I never heard anybody really say that in about the movie. But then I thought about it in the context of what we're talking about in the time loop.
So I'm so glad you said that, because it jogged my memory about wanting to bring that up.
Andrea:Is that it does feel kind of on the nose. And then to have a clock.
Paul:Right.
Andrea:Be one of the most important things. And then to have an actual timeline. Right. It's not just a clock.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:They figure out how long from in season four, they figure out how long from when the nightmares begin till death. Right. So there's an actual countdown. So I are. Have they been foreshadowing Some time stuff.
And, like, if there's time stuff, how much will L play a role in it? Is Elle equipped for that?
Paul:Yeah. That's very fair.
Andrea:Is L gonna be. I mean it to me, my perfect story. And this is totally. There's. I have no evidence where I want everyone to survive, so I'm.
I'm building myself the happiest ending possible. Like, I want to be. The only thing I'm heartbroken about at the end of this season is that Ellen, Mike broke up for good. Like, that's how I feel.
And that Nancy and Jonathan are no longer together. That's how I feel. Feel.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:I just. I would love to have this. I love these kids so much that I would hate to have anything actually bad happen to them.
So I'm only willing to let my brain go to. Nancy and Jonathan are toast. Ellen, Mike are toast.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:Yeah, they're done.
Paul:Yeah, that's fine. I could deal with that.
Andrea:I'll. I'll lick my wounds over that and move on.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:But I'm actually quite concerned that that will lose a bunch, several characters, and there'll be big ones. And to me, when I try to save myself from that heartbreak, I'm thinking Elle is gonna be under duress because she's their only real weapon.
And then we're gonna discover that Will has abilities that have. Haven't been unlocked yet. And then Will's gonna save the day so everybody gets to live.
Paul:I like that. I. I also think I want everybody to live, too. I also think. I just.
I was sitting here thinking as we were talking about all this and going back to our Holly stuff, is if the mission is to get.
If the mission is to get at L by pulling in Holly, which is much speculation that she's the one who's going to go missing like Will did next in season five, then it puts Mike at risk because he's gonna go after Holly, which. Which would expose L, because L's not going to want to let anything happen to Mike.
So the whole point of pulling Holly may have nothing to do with any sort of previous other reason or hurt, whatever.
It could simply be a strategic move to draw in Mike further to then make it where L exposes that thing that you're talking about, about her willingness to die to save the day.
Andrea:Totally.
Paul:We shall find out.
Andrea:It's very possible. But I also think there's a million other characters you could pick off.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:Like, again, why not Erica? Erica. Erica's missed most of the Supernatural story. She's. She's Only mostly been a part of, like, the spy story.
Paul:So.
Andrea:Yeah, why not Erica? Why not? Why not a. Like a weaker member of the. And when I say weak, I just mean, like, doesn't have powers. Doesn't. Isn't the most. Like.
What's the word? Why not Mike?
Paul:Why not Mike?
Andrea:Why not Mike? Like, let's be real here. Mike's role in this story is to be the protector in love of will and.
And I mean love platonically or romantically, however you want to apply it. For Will and Elle, he doesn't often contribute that much to their heist or whatever.
Paul:He's in an administrative role. He's overseeing. Right?
Andrea:Like, yeah, he. He keeps the team together. He. He notices stuff that no one. Mike is extremely observant. He notices stuff other people don't notice. He's.
He's a little bit more emotionally intelligent, I think, than the other boys. But he's not Dustin and he ain't Lucas and he's not even John. Like Jonathan often. Sometimes I'm like, what's Jonathan's real purpose here?
But, like, Jonathan usually is like, I have an idea. It may not be the best idea, but he has one. And so why not just take Mike? You could. If you peeled him off from the team, you.
Vecna could have a field day with Mike.
Paul:That's fair.
Andrea:Vecna would not want to take Nancy. That would be a mistake.
Paul:Okay. But you see, he let her get out the upside down unscathed in the very first time when she went in. She's the first one coming upside down. He was like.
Andrea:He was like, throw her back. I've read this, and I'm good.
Paul:Yeah, I'm good.
Andrea:He's like, I don't. I don't need. Yeah, I don't need this kind of entry.
I don't know if you've seen these tick tocks that people do where they are, like, pretending to have been kidnapped and the kidnapper basically wants to, like, give them back. There's like, a particular one that's like, if you kidnapped a Booktok girl. And it's so funny because it's like she's talking about characters.
She's singing Taylor Swift. She's. She's like, into musicals, you know, like, that kind of thing. And I'm like, yeah, that would be Nancy.
Paul:Yeah, for sure.
Andrea:You send the name Nancy. Be like, excuse me, what are we doing here? Why are we doing it? Can I interview you, Mr. Creel, for my newspaper article?
Paul:I'm going to go back. Yeah, exactly. No, yeah, I agree. I mean, yeah, it's a lot to predict. And we don't. We can't go.
And I guess last thing I'd say is we can't go without saying that trauma plays a big role in the victims that he's, like, selected thus far. So it's very fascinating. That's why I think I'm struggling with the Holly thing, because I can't understand why.
Andrea:Because there is none as far as we know.
Paul:As far as we know.
Andrea:Holly's been pretty sheltered.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:She. She lives a pretty privileged life. She's basically Nancy, except much younger. Right. Like, before all this, Nancy what.
Didn't really have that many struggles. And in fact, it's thrown in her face by Jonathan.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:And. Yeah, I totally agree. That would be something different. So you might be right. They might be the only thing that's special about Holly is she's there.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:And easy to pick off because she. Because Mike doesn't. Is always with the other. The rest of the group or whatever.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:So that could be it.
Paul:I guess we're gonna find out. Well, we got one more season to cover before we get to season five. We will be back with season four. Four. Please hit us up.
Let us know what you're thinking about the show coming up.
Anything we're saying, if you got any takes, hit us up on kin folklore pod on Instagram, Twitter, also on tik tok, and then also hit us up@kinfolkloregmail.com. any. Any takes you got. And we will see you next time.
Andrea:Bye, everyone.
Paul:It.
