Episode 5
Kinfolklore: Stranger Things Sn.3 (Chapters 1-4)
Welcome back to Kinfolklore, where Andrea and Paul dive deep into the fantasy and sci-fi worlds we love. Few shows capture that blend of nostalgia, terror, and friendship quite like Stranger Things.
This episode, we’re rewinding all the way back to Hawkins, Indiana, Fall 1985. The era of big hair, bright lights, and even bigger monsters. The food, Ice cream from Scoops Ahoy! The hangout Strarcourt mall. In preparation for the final season dropping this November, Andrea and Paul are rewatching every episode from the very beginning, continuing their coverage here with Season 3, Chapters 1-4
Transcript
Almost too big.
Paul:Too big.
Andrea:Almost too big. And disgusting.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:The food. Ice cream from Scoops Ahoy.
Paul:Yum.
Andrea:The Hangout. The brand new Starcourt Mall.
Paul:Oh, I feel like shopping.
Andrea:I love the mall.
Andrea:We'll talk about it.
Paul:Yes.
Andrea:I love the mall.
Andrea:Me too.
Andrea:That's right. We're diving back into Stranger Things. Looking at season three, where the nostalgia is sweet, the relationships are incredibly messy.
Paul:Very.
Andrea:And danger feels closer than ever. I'm Andrea.
Paul:And I'm Paul. And for those of you who are.
Andrea:New here, we're cousins who love breaking.
Paul:Down fantasy and sci fi worlds.
Andrea:We love the way they capture our hearts and collective anxiety. In the case of Stranger Things, they always deliver both. And in these first four episodes, the.
Paul:Kids are growing up, the Russians are.
Andrea:Scheming and plotting, and the Mind Flayer is looking for a new host. He stays looking at like a real parasitic.
Andrea:He should get his own personality, right? Like he should get his own personality.
Andrea:I agree.
Andrea:Do some inner work, Mind Flayer. Examine what's going on inside. Today we're covering season three, chapters one through four, from the teenage heartbreak to the exploding rats.
It's gross.
Andrea:Although we would like that in New York City. That'd be pretty cool. A couple of explosions.
Andrea:Not that way.
Andrea:Yeah, clean them up.
Andrea:I just want them. I want them to all leave. Like, I don't want them to explode. That's disgusting. It's.
We're heading into 4th of July where the fireworks are definitely just not fireworks. They're a little bit something extra. And if you haven't seen through chapter four yet, pause this, continue your binge, and then come back.
As always, this podcast is not spoiler free. We will be discussing all four seasons of Stranger Things and saving the first shadow play for its own mini chapter. So we will not spoil that here.
Andrea:But you all know the drill.
Paul:Kinfolk.
Andrea:We will have adult content. But I need to have a little.
Paul:Heart to heart with you all.
Andrea:Is it really unreasonable to ask for a little respect in your own home? You pay no bills around here. And is it really too much? Is 3 inches really too much to ask? I mean, honestly, food for thought.
It's 30 seconds from showtime. And by showtime, I mean the poolside walk out by Billy for the Hawkins mothers.
And if you've come to get a full on Billy moment, you've come to the right place. Mrs. Wheeler is feeling all the things. All of the things.
Andrea:Oh, man. That was that little plot line, yo. I love it. I love it.
Andrea:I absolutely love it. I absolutely.
Andrea:It's messy, but I love it.
Paul:So.
Andrea:I love it.
Andrea:So let's talk about. See chapters one and two. Susie, do you copy? And the mall rats.
So we open in Russia with hazmat suits, failed experiments, a chilling countdown to open the gate again. Back in Hawkins, Mike and Eleven cannot keep their hands off of each other. I was just as outraged as Hopper.
Andrea:Yeah, me too.
Andrea:Okay, what are we doing here, kids? Have some respect.
Andrea:Even worse than the keeping their hands on each other. It's the sarcasm for me. Like, it's like, literally. Hey, take. I'm gonna need to take the bass out of your voice. I made you be a little less sarcastic.
Let's. Let's chill out.
Andrea:Mike is insane in these first few disrespect. Anyway, Dustin.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:Returns from camp with tales of his girlfriend, Susie. We know Susie is real, but it is very funny that he's beginning.
Andrea:Nobody believes it. Nobody believes him.
Andrea:He also has a massive ham radio called Cerebro. That becomes important later at the mall, where Steve has a job and is a worker in Scoops Ahoy.
Andrea:Oh, how the mighty have fallen. Oh, how the mighty have fallen. He was college bound. He was dating Nancy Wheeler. He had the whole world ahead of him.
Andrea:It's a rough look. It's a rough look. Especially because of the costume. Like, maybe if it wasn't for the little, like, uniform they had, it would have been not as bad.
But it's a tough. It's a tough. But we also meet Robin.
If he didn't have that job, we would have never met Robin, who becomes like the heart of the best subplot in maybe in Stranger Things history. I love Steve and Robin together so much. I like. Yeah, I'll take whatever. Whatever. He had to fall from grace to get this. I'll take it.
So Joyce is Joy sing. As Joyce does, being her normal self, noticing something weird and then going into a full on tailspin about it. She's just can't. Can't ignore.
Sends her into science detective mode with Mr. Clark, the world's best and most patient science 100.
Andrea:Oh, my God, this poor man.
Andrea:Yeah, this poor man. No boundaries.
Andrea:Hawkins, Bill Nye, the science guy. Like, he is like, literally that guy. Like, everybody's like, we got a scientific conundrum. Where do we go? Mr. Clark. Mr. Clark's got you.
Andrea:Nancy and Jonathan, meanwhile, are interns at the Hawkins Post. Where Nancy faces open sexism while chasing a lead about rabid rats.
Some of those rats, as we've discussed, disgustingly explode as the Mind Flayer starts rebuilding itself a flesh body.
Paul:Weird.
Andrea:I just. This was too much. I don't know. We're doing duffers. This was disgusting.
Andrea:This is like the blog.
Andrea:It was even. It was more disgusting on the second watch. Like, this was gross.
Andrea:They remixed like. They remixed like, Breakfast Club, Terminator, the Blob. All these things all into one season. It's kind of interesting.
Paul:It was a little crazy. It was a little crazy.
Andrea:This was nasty. Meanwhile, Billy gets dragged into the horror after being pulled into the still mill. Steel mill.
And becoming the Flare's newest host, Hopper attempts a heart to heart with Mike.
Paul:That he just threatens him.
Andrea:I don't even like, was this a hard job like this? You know, on my first watch, I was very much like, Hopper is. Is being like, not a great parent.
But again, as I have gotten older and my friends have children this age now, I'm like, poor Hopper.
Andrea:Oh, the mic whisper in my child's ear. And for them to crack up and, like, try to play me in front of my, like, no, no, no. I am going to do exactly what he did.
Listen, look, this is when you can do this, when you can come over. This is when you can't. It probably was a bad look for Hopper overall, but this was. This was.
Paul:It was needed.
Andrea:They were too much. They were doing too much.
Paul:I'm sorry.
Andrea:They were doing way too much. He's. Hopper's totally unhinged this season.
Andrea:He's crazy.
Paul:Oh, my God.
Andrea:Insane. But. But, you know, If Mike and 11 had just listened to him, maybe wouldn't be that way, you know?
You know, this leads to Mike lying to 11 about his nana being sick, and then to 11 dumping Mike in the. With my favorite quote of the entire show, I dump your ass.
Andrea:And everybody's reacting. Well, they hit it with, like, the. The rap Cipher reacts. Here was like, oh, oh, oh.
Andrea:Dustin enlists Steve and Robin to decode a mysterious Russian transmission that's definitely not coming from Moscow. Yeah, it's local.
Andrea:It's local. And she figures it out.
Robin figures out not only the Russian, but she also figures out that it's, like, in the mall, which, you know, good for the new person in the crew to have this much skill.
Andrea:Skill.
Andrea:Amazing. Amazing.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:So next, in the case of the missing lifeguard and the sauna test, Elle and Max's girl power sleepover turns into a surveillance mission where they Spy on Billy and witness Heather's abduction.
Paul:It gets really, really scary to see what's going on for them.
Andrea:Will is desperate to revive the normal functions of the party. He's like, hey, can we get back on track? You guys are distracted with all this other stuff. Chiefly girls. I need you to get back to.
We're on a campaign. Let's go. But he gets brushed off and he hits his breaking point. It's not my fault you don't like.
Paul:Girls is what Mike says. And it's rough. It's heartbreaking.
Andrea:Most, Most heart. I like Mike understood he crossed the line immediately. But oh my God, so heartbreaking. The knife through my heart.
Andrea:It was the way he weaponized his knowledge of his friend. Right. Like, it's like, okay, he knows that.
Paul:His friend is gay and he's going to. And he weaponize it.
Andrea:It wasn't, it was loaded. I think the duffers did something here where they haven't, they haven't at this point, unless I, they haven't come out right away and said it. Right.
So, like, we're operating as the audience.
Paul:And seeing this and, and it could.
Andrea:Be taken either way that he just hasn't gotten a girlfriend yet or that he's queer.
Paul:Right.
Andrea:And the reality of it is is that either way is just fucked up. Either way for Mike. He crossed the line, so it doesn't.
Paul:Really matter in this point.
Andrea:Yeah. And I, I sympathize for Mike a little bit because he's a. These are what, eighth graders? Like, middle school's rough because not.
And we'll talk more about the relationships, but, like, middle school is really hard.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:It's when a lot of us are going through our first kind of searching for our, our identity in a real way and not all of our friends can come along.
Paul:Agreed.
Andrea:So I, I, I don't want to be too harsh on Mike. I definitely said cruel things to my friends when I was their age, but, man, this hurt. Yeah, it hurt.
Andrea:I was tough on Mike in the.
Paul:First half of these, in these episodes, I soften on Mike midway through the end. I don't know why. I mean, obviously we'll talk about why when we, in the next episode that we record. But I, I just think, like, I don't know.
Andrea:Tough, tough. Mike was having a Hopper esque run.
Paul:In these days of his unhingedness in these episodes.
Andrea:They're both so unhinged. It's so funny.
Andrea:Hopper and Joyce's Scooby Doo adventure leads them back to the lab. Somehow they decide that this is a good idea for the two of them to go into the lab and start snooping around as to what might be happening.
Paul:Maybe it's the lab that's causing this electromagnetic change.
Andrea:And this is where Hopper gets his ass whooped. He gets attacked.
Normally, he's got things under control, but if he hadn't seen the Terminator, he got a personal preview of a guy very much like the Terminator. Him up. I'll be back. I will break you like Dolph London. All those things happen. So Robin also cracks the Russian code.
Paul:Connecting the mystery straight to Starcourt Mall.
Andrea:So it's not just local, it's in.
Paul:The mall, which we talked about a little bit ago. Nancy and Jonathan get fired after the.
Andrea:Driscoll incident, leading to a fight about privilege and courage.
Paul:It's a interesting dynamic between the two of them, and we'll talk about that a little bit more.
Andrea:And the kids, they set up a test. They set up a way to see whether the Mind Flayer has taken over.
Paul:Billy's body by getting them into a sauna. Because the Mind Flayer does not like heat.
Andrea:And it turns into a very terrifying.
Paul:Confrontation that proves the Mind Flayer has returned and is stronger than ever and is inside Billy. And, you know, it was pretty intense for everyone involved. And definitely Max is mortified, you know.
Andrea:So this season, which I think I have been quite critical of in the past, so much action, but this scene is actually quite terrifying. Like Billy. I didn't know where they were going to go of this.
I thought one of the kids was going to die the first time I saw it, because Billy is completely unhinged and he's really powerful. And if 11 hadn't been there, these kids absolutely would have gotten hurt.
Paul:100%. No, they can't. They can't go messing around without her powers.
Andrea:So let's. Let's go ahead and let's pour one.
Paul:Out for every exploded rat in Hawkins, the Russian scientist who didn't get the first experiment right. The guy got choked out.
Andrea:Forgot about that guy.
Andrea:Done off.
Paul:He just.
Andrea:I'm like, damn, another name.
Andrea:Another nameless lab worker.
Andrea:Exactly.
Paul:This goes out to all our fallen homies.
Andrea:Yo, don't let the chin get like that, y'. All.
Andrea:Rip to hoppers. Peace and quiet. Forever gone.
Andrea:Forever gone. Forever gone.
Paul:No more. No more.
Andrea:No more mornings up for coffee and contemplation.
Andrea:Nope. Nope. You have a teenage daughter now. And even when she's an adult, it's gonna be. It's a lot of work.
Hopper, your mom and dad, all right, you play both roles, okay. And as a grown woman who still feels like I need parenting, I, I. My sympathies are with Hopper. My sympathies are with you.
Andrea:So let's talk about the parenting woes. Okay. What are your thoughts on the. The three inches? It remains. It remains a great dad moment in tv.
Paul:Where, Where.
Andrea:I'll be honest with you, let's.
Paul:This is.
Andrea:This drops around the same time as.
Paul:Endgame and Game of Thrones. We know Game of Thrones historically as terrible ass dads. Like the worst dads.
Andrea:Right. And let's be honest, Tony Stark's dad left him a lot of money, gave him a gift of amazing scientific intellect. Not the best dad. Right. Let's.
Let's keep it 100. Right. So all this is happening in that time period. We're having a run of pretty horrific dadding.
This is a little funny because in that context of the pop culture moment, I think this is something that most dads could relate to, especially after coming.
Paul:Home from work and wanting to make sure your daughter's good.
Andrea:And I, I think they could. I could. What do you think of this moment?
Andrea:These kids took advantage of a very good situation.
Paul:Right.
Andrea:All right, first of all, when I was this age, boys were not allowed over. Period.
Paul:Right.
Andrea:Period.
If I wanted to see a boy I had a crush on, because I wasn't allowed to have boyfriends at this age, if I wanted to have a see a boy I had a crush on, I had to go to the mall. All right. I. I couldn't. We had to go to a public place. I. He. In my bedroom. Absolutely not.
Paul:Three.
Andrea:Absolutely three inches. When I was even my.
Andrea:I had a really good close friend who was a boy. He was not allowed in my bedroom. He could come to the house. We could hang out in the living room, but come on, man.
Paul:Yeah. And three inches.
Andrea:The door would have to be completely open. Completely open.
Andrea:There's no closed doors.
Andrea:Right.
Andrea:In a black person's house.
Paul:It's not happening. Not happening.
Andrea:No. So if the door closed, it would have been removed and would be no privacy whatsoever. So these kids have a good. Now, is Hopper acting crazy?
Absolutely. Like, two things are true. Two things are true. These kids have a good situation that they're then taking advantage of.
And Hopper is also acting like a maniac in these first few episodes.
Andrea:Yeah. And I don't know. I mean, like, it's just weird. What are your thoughts on this?
I feel like in season one, Hopper, while depressed, while sad about losing his.
Paul:Daughter, all those things.
Andrea:He had a different level of emotional intelligence that I kind of. It seems like it's divulged in. Like, he's just like a. He's just like a bumbling, angry, like, whatever. Like, everything is, like, 0 to 100.
And I get it. When you have teenagers, it's hard to keep it up. But I feel like he should have been able to understand some of what.
Paul:Joyce was trying to break it down to him inside the store, but he did not. He did not.
Andrea:Definitely leaned into a version of Hopper that I think is very early present, but then they kind of soften in later seasons. But they're definitely leaning into this, like, emotional immaturity and not knowing what he's doing as a parent. And it just. I don't know.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:I don't know.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:I don't feel like Jonathan gave Joyce a lot of problems, and, like, I know they need a reason for Joyce and Hopper to be talking this early in the season, but I don't. Joyce doesn't have much experience of this either. I don't think Jonathan was the type of kid who. She dealt with this and Will certainly isn't.
But Joyce does give him good advice. At the end of the day, though, I'm kind of with Hopper. Like, put the law down.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:And they need to obey the law.
Paul:Yeah. 100.
Andrea:Joyce is doing gentle parenting. All right. I respect.
Paul:Okay.
Andrea:She's way ahead of her time. Way ahead of her time. But come on, man. I. I tried to gentle parent y', all, and y' all doing sneaky stuff. I don't like that in my house.
Paul:Look. No, I.
Andrea:All I know is. All I know is the Wheelers had.
Paul:A Reagan Bush sign on their lawn.
Andrea:Which I remember a time. I'm old enough to remember George Herbert Walker Bush lecturing me about family values. But these Wheelers who love them.
Where the fuck are your children? Where are they?
Paul:These.
Andrea:These Wheelers don't know where their children are. No time. They don't know where Nancy is. The only person they got that tips on is. Is Holly. Holly is under wraps. How is Mike over there?
Andrea:Just the Wheelers later in this season. Erica is just out of the house for, like, 24 hours.
Andrea:What is up with the. Yo, we already. We will. We will go deeply into this and clear what is happening right now.
Andrea:Do you remember when we were watching this season in real time, and I text you, and I was like, this is completely unbelievable. Like, the Mind Flayer. Sure, Whatever. The Upside down. Sure. Whatever.
But this is the thing that breaks my ability to believe this story, is that Erica Sinclair is in a Mall.
Andrea:For 24 hours and the sun up to sundown. No, nobody knows where she is. And mom never hits them up. And Lucas is never asked to go check where his sister is. This is.
Paul:This is not real. This is.
Andrea:This is unreal.
Andrea:Unbelievable.
Andrea:But, you know, I digress.
Andrea:Thank you.
Andrea:Speaking of crazy plot lines, unhinged situations, I don't know how the Russians got into America this easily, but they have set up camp using the mayor of Hawkins, Mayor Klein, and Star Court Mall. I love the mall stuff.
Paul:I absolutely love it. It is a nostalgic. It's like a burst of nostalgia.
Andrea:It felt like what it felt like.
Paul:For me to walk into Roosevelt Field Mall in New York for the first time. It was absolutely amazing. What were your thoughts here about. About the mall and, and. And the connections they made to foreign investors.
Andrea:So Starcourt is actually, to me, the most interesting part of what they set up here. It is representing two separate things.
Like it represents something to us as the audience and it represents something different to the people in the story. So what it represents to us is like the rise of American consumerism and a certain way of life and nostalgia.
Like from around the early 80s until the mid aughts, the mall was the center of social life for young people in America. And that was from like, you know, middle school until even your maybe mid. Early to mid-20s. Like, it was the center of social life.
It had all the things that. It had a food court, it had a theater. It had all these things that you needed to socialize with your friend to be out in community.
And it's not missed on me as a. That like the. I went and looked up like, when was the. What was the first depiction of a mall in this type of mall in a movie?
nd it was dawn of the dead in:Now I haven't seen dawn of the dead and probably 20 years, I'm just gonna keep it 100. So I didn't make that connection right away because I had kind of forgotten they were in a mall in that movie.
But I just thought that that was like such a nod to what they did in the second half of this season. But then Mean Girls is the last movie I remember, and I'm sure there are some after.
eature of it. And that was in:The mall, to me was such an important part of growing up. It was the first place where I was allowed to have independence.
Like, I remember my parents would drop me off at the mall for a couple hours and I would hang out with my friends and. And it was the first place where I was just like, unsupervised with my friends.
This the same way that Elle and Max are roaming the mall and there's all these different things to do. And it's a. It's a. For a young woman, it's like a. A place with even more important.
It has more important significance in part because it's kind of where you can unlock, like, your feminine style. Like, you can go and look at makeup, you can go and pick out your own clothes. Your mom doesn't have to do that for you anymore.
And so I love the mall scene. Like, I was so obsessed with it.
Paul:Yeah, I do too.
Andrea:So obsessed with it in Hawkins. Back to your question, which was like, what about the. The money coming in? It represents something totally different. Right.
Like underneath this, like, capitalism and this glossy new thing they have, their downtown is literally falling apart. Like, it looks like Joyce's job is going to be gone soon. She hasn't had customers in days. It's upending the way of life in Hawkins.
And it's an outside foreign source. Right. But the mayor is allowing it to happen. And so in real time, there's this kind of trade off for, like, well, so many jobs were created or.
But those jobs are not for the people who are on Main Street. It's thinking about, you know, taking Hawkins into a new. Towards a new century where they're gonna have more population and grow. But it's.
It's forgetting and leaving behind the people who. Who built Hawkins to what it is.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:And so I loved. I loved all that stuff.
all across the Midwest in the: Paul:I agree. And I think what I love about what they do in this season now, reflected on it, having watched it again, is they use places.
I mean, they use a lot of places to set, like, themes for the characters. And I think the mall represents this shaping of identity and shaping of yourself as a. As a. As a young person. And also this.
The way that they lean into, you know, Elle really finding her own identity independent of Mike, independent of, you know, the. Max is pretty clear that, yeah, like, cool, I'm with. I'm with Lucas, but I'm also my own person. And she helps Elle to find that.
But there's also, like, for the guys, there's like, this coming to terms when they're walking through the mall and they're like, let's go get a gift for.
Andrea:Elle and Max so that we can, like, make up.
Paul:And they realize and come to terms.
Andrea:With the fact that they don't have enough money. They have to earn. You know, like, they're coming face to.
Paul:Face with this capitalism that you're talking about.
Andrea:But also, also, I think, like, identity.
Paul:Of the whole town is shifting. Like, so I think, like, the mall represents, I think, really clearly disconnection to identity.
Obviously, it's shown in, like, the girls trip in the Material Girl song playing in.
Andrea:Oh, come on. It's. I mean, how do you not feel something if you grew up in that area and you hear Material Girl come on while they're shopping?
Paul:It's absolutely amazing.
Andrea:And, you know, it's. It's. It's Elle's first real sense of, you know, what she. Who she is outside of the boys.
The boys have, like, dominated, especially Mike have dominated. And it's like, great for, like.
Paul:You know, she.
Andrea:Other than going into Nancy's room, that.
Paul:In season one, she hasn't had that real connection to just having a normal girlhood. Like, she's longed for that. And I think this is this connection with Max and having these experiences, is that forming of identity?
I think equally like what I noticed about places, and we'll get to that in the next episode, but I do want to just register it here, is.
Andrea:That there's a sense of innocence with.
Paul:The fair, that everything that plays out there, there's this idea of the lost innocence, right. And this new. And how that changes your identity a little bit based on the trauma that they go through.
And I think we'll talk about that more in the second half of the season.
Andrea:But there is, like, I felt like.
Paul:The fear really represented that in a way that I was. I didn't really think about before because I saw the kids and. And I saw them playing.
I saw them coming down the slides and on the rides while all this other stuff is going on. And it made me think about season one. The party in season one. Even though the party is now changing and growing and becoming something different.
And I think, like, the mall really does play a central role here. And, like, even in, you know, the ending of this series of, like, shaping who you are, your identity, lost idea. Changing identity through the.
Throughout these. These experiences. And. And.
And definitely there's moments where you really find the loss of innocence, which I think is like, a really big theme in this whole thing. So.
Andrea:I totally agree.
Andrea:Let's. Let's talk about some of the important conversations that.
Paul:That. That in relationships.
Andrea:I think, like, that's really the meat.
Paul:Of this whole series.
Andrea:So first, let's go with the.
Paul:The reunion. I mean, the one that we love.
Andrea:Dustin and Steve, they got a secret handshake.
Andrea:It's so cute.
Paul:It's amazing.
Andrea:It's amazing.
Andrea:It's so funny. I love it. I also love Robin's reaction to it. Robin is like, when are you friends with.
I feel like that's the same episode where Erica pops up with her girl gang. First of all, can we just talk about the fact that Erica has, like, a little posse of girls with her?
I was like, I didn't know Erica rolled like this.
Paul:Yeah, it's amazing. It's great.
Andrea:But, yeah, I just think it's hilarious that, like, all these kids come to the mall to see Steve, and Robin is like, what is going on?
Andrea:Why do you have all these? Because he was the babysitter during all this trauma. Like, it's hilarious.
Paul:It's great.
Andrea:But I love that scene.
Paul:I love Robin's reaction, too.
Andrea:And I think, you know, it really.
Paul:Sets in motion, like, you know, everything we talked about with them identifying what's happening in the mall. But I just love. I just.
Andrea:I love the whole. I love that whole pairing.
Paul:Robin, Dustin, Steve, Erica.
Andrea:Erica joins the game.
Andrea:The scoop troop. They're great.
Andrea:The scoop troop. It's great.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:Erica joins the gang. She's part of the gang now because they recruit her, partially because she's tiny.
Paul:Enough to do the mission.
Andrea:And I kind of appreciate her negotiating skills. I mean, she wanted lifetime ice cream. She was.
Paul:She.
Andrea:She sat down at the table. Look, you want me to do something, this is what you're gonna have to pay me. It's good. I like it.
Andrea:And I like. I like how Dustin tries to appeal to her patriotism, but. And it kind of works. But then she's also like, okay, but I also need to get paid.
I'm a capitalist. This is a capitalist society. Like, what are we. Yes. I'M I am pro America, not a commie. So pay me.
Andrea:So pay me. Exactly.
Paul:Exactly.
Andrea:Right.
Paul:No, I love it.
Andrea:I love that she's, you know, scamming out here. Out here. She's an ice cream scammer and she's out here, she's out here. She's evolved from free samples.
Andrea:So like the free sample game. Straight scamming. First of all, like, you're taking advantage of a policy. But I got to respect our hustle.
Andrea:Look, I can, I gotta respect it.
Paul:I have taken part in many of Bourbon chickens in the mall, walk through in the food court. You know.
Andrea:I cannot front when they out there have the toothpick. They used to have the toothpick. You walk by, just grab a toothpick, eat it, come back, oh, can I taste that again? And just go again?
He's like, yeah, it was, it's. It's not something I'm proud of, but I must admit. Yeah. And then while that's going on, let's talk about, let's talk about the Robin introduction.
What do you. I mean, we talked a little bit about her earlier.
Paul:We love Robin as a character. I think it's. It's one of the best introductions of a character on the show.
Andrea:I mean, we got.
Paul:We had another great one last season with Max, but this one is like just, I think, equally as great.
Andrea:I would love to know who the Duffers based these characters on because the group has really grown in really cool ways. And these are a lot of characters to manage but also to give distinct personalities.
Robin is really different from Max, who's really different from El, who's really different from Nancy. They're all. And if we go back to the original party, Will, Lucas, Dustin and Mike all have extremely distinct personalities.
It's real testament to their writing of characters that they've. This is now the second and we know there will be one more. Well, at least one more.
We don't know who they'll introduce in season five, but they're then going to introduce Eddie, which was a beloved character right from the beginning. So the fact that we get Elle in season one, love her. Center of the heart of the story. Max in season two becomes almost the brain of the story.
And then Robin, who brings in this like, self assured but still a little awkward, smart, but doesn't take herself too seriously the way Nancy does. Like, it's just. Just layers upon layers of, of really strong personality definition that they've created in their characterization.
I. Robin is like such a great character and she's an important character for two reasons. The way that Max gives Dustin and Lucas some tension in their relationship.
Robin takes two characters who have never really recovered from their earlier relationship to the next level for both of them. So she does that for Steve first in. In season three where her and Steve. We'll talk more about this when we cover chapters five through eight. But her.
Her relationship with Steve becomes one of the most important in the story. And then we see in season four, she does this. Her and Nancy's relationship becomes extremely important. And also just checking Nancy's own bull.
Like sometimes Nancy believes the Nancy hype a little bit.
Paul:Yes, she does.
Andrea:And Robin is. Robin is like chill girl. Like, relax. There's another way to do things.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:So Robin is like such an important cat. I just love her in this. And she's funny.
Andrea:Yeah.
Andrea:She. And she. The fact that she like immediately is like, oh, I can. I can decode this and actually does it.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:Is just. It's so good. She's. Kids are so smart and they're allowed to be smart in their different ways. Right.
Because the show kind of makes fun of Steve for not being the smartest. Right. That there's so many jokes about how he does in school. But Steve is also a good problem solver in other ways. When they're in a crisis.
Steve is a pretty good. Like all of the characters bring something to the table that's really important. I love that about.
Andrea:I think one of his.
Paul:I think one of Steve's. Steve's greatest attributes that. That as his superpower. Somebody say, what's the superpower? It's his self awareness.
His ability to reflect and to be able to say, yeah, I kind of wasn't great or yeah, I could have handled that differently and then make the adjustments to like be better like his. That is.
Andrea:And that's a skill. Like people just. It's easy to hand wave that but it's like to meet moments and be like, oh crap.
Paul:Like, yeah, that was not the best. Let me go and read. Let me go. Try to make amends and make that better. I really respect Steve and to it.
Andrea:And as part of that to admit when you're wrong when you miss the mark. That's such a hard thing for people to do. And yet Steve does it all the time.
Paul:I agree.
Andrea:So he just. Robin and Steve a plus grouping better. Not better than. But even more complex in the Dustin Steve matchup. Which is great.
And maybe that's just a testament of Steve's character. If you put him in with anybody, maybe we'll immediately love that dynamic. But I will say I didn't love the Eddie and Steve dynamic in season four.
So, you know, I just. I. I think that Robin brings something to the show that we didn't know we needed. Yeah, I thought we were good.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:Going to season three, I was like, I thought we were good.
Paul:Yeah. No, I agree. I love it. I love it. You know, and, And. And little meta. But thank God for. For Uma and Ethan. They gave us another great character.
Andrea:She's. She's absolutely, like, there's so much discourse about Nepo babies the last few years, but she actually absolutely owns this role.
Andrea:I agree.
Andrea:No, I don't care if she. If she got the role because of who her parents are. I really don't care either. She. She's so good. Is Robin.
Like, I could not imagine someone else playing this part this well. She is Robin to me. It just. She does it. She does a great job of that.
Paul:No, I totally agree. I'm so glad that they cast her. And it was. And. And because of that exact reason, like, I think the dynamic between her and Steve is great.
I think the dynamic between her and Dustin is great. I think all. She's just, like, really good. And I. She's.
Andrea:We'll talk about this in season five.
Paul:In episodes five through eight, but she's.
Andrea:She's really no fan of Nancy, and, And. And Steve had to grow on her at this point. So I think. I mean, I guess what I want.
Paul:To talk about, if I'm thinking about it, is, is I think I want to talk about the newspaper, because we kind of went over it, but we didn't really go into detail. And, you know, I think specifically I.
Andrea:Was really wondering about your thoughts on.
Paul:It, because I know that, you know, this is something that you've done before in your life. You've worked in newsrooms.
Andrea:So how did. Like, what did you think from that perspective?
Paul:The time period that we're in? How much.
I don't know how much has changed, you know, in that profession, and I know neither one of us are in that profession today currently, but you have. Have been there. And I mean, the sexism was atrocious, and just the vibe of, like, not even trying to get to the truth was also very much on display.
So what are your thoughts when you saw this, when you were watching this?
Andrea:I also worked for a small newspaper for a while, and it was a news newsroom that was mainly controlled by men. And there were some other things happening, but I. No one ever disrespected me to the. How Nancy. Nancy's being disrespected and.
But I also was an intern. I had been hired as a reporter. But I could definitely see that there were. There was sexism in our newsroom. For sure. That was pretty on checked.
Like the leadership did not check it. It was not coming from leadership.
I actually thought our leadership did a good job of trying to encourage the female reporters, but the male reporters and some of the editors of. Of different sections could do and say really sexist things. And it was essentially unchecked.
I, you know, I remember complaining about it to one of my editors and he kind of brushed it off. So Nancy's. I relate to Nancy a lot. And also, you know, in season four, Nancy wants to go to Emerson College. That's where I went.
So I relate to Nancy a lot. I do think that Nancy takes some. I'm not crazy about this storyline for Nancy.
I think that Nancy does some stuff here that is clearly unexpected, ethical, not journalistic. She puts her and Jonathan's jobs on the line without much consent from Jonathan and then gets mad at Jonathan when he's upset about that, which is.
The show kind of plays it like Jonathan is wrong. Jonathan actually has bills to pay and like Nancy does not. Nancy is very privileged.
That said, I love the conversation that comes out of this for her and Karen. That conversation between her and Karen is so important to me.
It kind of is a callback to the season one conversation where Karen is like, can you can tell me anything after she comes back the night that Barb goes missing and her. And her and Steve did the deed and she didn't want to talk to her mom about it. I love the conversation between it. I also, like.
Later in the season, Karen chose herself to be a very intuitive mom. And I do want to talk in a moment about Karen in this entire season, because Karen has some wild moments.
Paul:Very wild.
Andrea:There's some wild moments, yes. But I. I don't love all of the stuff that's going on the plot line. It seems pretty clear the. The Hawkins Post plot line.
It seems pretty clear to me that, like, the. The writers don't actually understand that Nancy is, like, largely in the wrong for a lot of the stuff that she pulls in this.
However, that does not excuse the sexism that she experiences. And calling Nancy. Nancy Drew. It's not an own. What do you.
Paul:Yeah, Bruh. Nancy Drew.
Andrea:Never read a name.
Andrea:I was like. I was like, yeah, she's amazing. Like, what do you guys.
Paul:Yeah, exactly.
Andrea:I would have Been like. And what?
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:Yes, exactly. I am Nancy Drew.
Paul:Exactly.
Andrea:But, you know, the guys in the newsroom were in colluding with the mayor or whatever and then taken over by the mind Flayer. Love that for them.
Andrea:Yeah, me too.
Andrea:Love that for them.
Andrea:Me too. I was.
Andrea:Karma is a bitch.
Paul:Just again, like.
Andrea:And the guy in the nude room.
Paul:Who kept calling her Nancy Drew was giving me Biff energy again. Biff from Biff from Back to the Future.
Andrea:Like, definite Biff energy.
Paul:Like, not the main editor in chief, but the other dude.
Andrea:Yeah. I think I largely agree with your.
Paul:Take on the whole thing. I think the one thing that I kind of go a little bit more with the duffers on is I don't think that what.
I totally agree that what you're doing in ethical.
I do think that there's a nuance with Jonathan that although he had bills to pay and he was just trying to do whatever to keep his head down and pay his bills. Any steps up to the plaintiff. But there was a.
Andrea:There was a. There was a little level of being.
Paul:Like, complicit, I think, is what they were trying to capture. They didn't capture very well that he knew that they weren't going to bother him, so he was okay in some ways with them bothering her.
And I think that's where she's pushing back. But I think where he's pushing back to your point is.
Andrea:Yeah, but you're super privileged.
Paul:If you don't do this internship, like, you're going to be just fine to go and do whatever. I'm not. Like, I literally have to, like, make money, like you're saying.
Andrea:So I think that's the one place.
Andrea:I kind of intern. Yeah, she's an intern. I was an intern.
Paul:Me, too.
Andrea:Interns don't get to break news. Like, that's not. You're an intern now. Getting coffee is wrong. Like, that shouldn't. In lunch. That shouldn't be her job.
She's not going to learn anything from that.
Andrea:I mean, I did that. I didn't learn anything from that. I went to 4 years of film school and freaking went PA.
Paul:Taking driving vans and getting lunch and taking out.
Andrea:You know, when you first get on a film set. Like, so to your point, that is the job, what she's doing.
Paul:So I do think that she's kind of dragging it a little bit. That's the part that I think Jonathan's right on.
Andrea:Would have never been hired to. In fairness to Nancy, like, she would have never been hired to get called Coffee and lunch if she was a boy.
Paul:That's true.
Andrea:You know, and so that part of it is very sexist and, and wrong. Like I said, Nancy's not right here, but she's not entirely wrong either. They're definitely treating her badly.
You know, the conversation between her and Karen kind of summarizes my feelings about it. Like, don't let them diminish you, basically, is what Karen says. And so. And she's, she's very smart, but sometimes she's too smart for her own good.
Paul:Right.
Andrea:I would like to remind the class that Nancy Wheeler went into the Upside down alone in season one.
Andrea:Bruh, bruh.
Andrea:What are we doing? Nancy is always like, I got this covered, girl. You don't always got it, bro. Okay?
Paul:Especially that when they go in and.
Andrea:The old ladies eating fertilizer. You ain't got it. No, that's it. They were like, what is happening?
Andrea:Listen, like I said, I love Nancy. I stand Nancy, but you know, sometimes she needs to come off her high horse.
Which is why I'm delighted when she and Robin get together in season four, because she, she did a little, A little humbling. Like Robin was like, not everyone is a try hard Nancy. Like a beasy 100%.
Andrea:So I mean, so I guess the last, I mean, the last relationship we.
Paul:Kind of, I mean, kind of get into for this, these four seasons, I think, I mean, these four episodes is the Will and Mike episode dynamic. And I really. It's changing, right?
Like if they still, like we spoke a little bit about it, about his comment that wasn't the main thing in the relationship for the most part. I think, like, they're good in this season, but there's some tension when it comes down to growing up.
And the party's changing and they're not playing D and D as much. And I think he's, you know, like really, really.
Andrea:I think, I think he's.
Paul:He's struggling with like, what this means, what. Where he fits into this.
And I think he finds his footing a little bit more once they realize that his ability to sense where the Mind Flayer is is an asset to the whole party. And it becomes important to him to play that role, like in the sauna episode.
Andrea:But I think it's a difficult. It's strained.
Paul:It's strained a little bit. I would say it started off strained in these first three episodes with Mike and Will.
Andrea:This is not a great Will season. They just. I don't think they knew what to do with Will at this point in the story.
But I do think that this season does something really important, which is it sets up Will as, once again, an outsider in the. In group. He's really struggling with how everybody has moved on and has different interests now. And I. I get it. That's. That's middle school.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:You know, so much of middle school in high school is the evolution of who your people are, who become your people, who's your tribe. And some people don't find their tribe until they're well into adulthood. But I think that Will felt really safe with this group of people.
He thought that they were gonna play D and D together. He was gonna be in this world where he understood the rules.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:Right. And then it's a place of safety for him. And I also don't think that it's acknowledged by the group how much time he's lost.
Paul:Right.
Andrea:He lost time not just from the seven days he was in the Upside down or whatever, but from recovering from that experience, from recovering from being possessed by the Mind Flayer. Will. Will has lost time. He's lost emotional growth that he would have otherwise had if he had a normal. A normal life.
And so I just wish that the group would treat with Will with the same empathy this season as they treat L this season. L gets treated with such love and compassion by her friends this season. I actually had forgotten that element of it. The.
And this comes later, but, like, the fighting over, does she even need to use her power? Should she be using her powers in this way? Mike is so protective of her. Hopper is obviously extremely protective of her, but so are.
Is everybody else. Nancy and Max and all these people really come to try to shield l, try to be her strength, try to prop her up, try to make sure she's okay.
Will, I feel like this season doesn't get as much of that, and maybe it's because he's gotten so much of it previously, but I just. The Will and Mike dynamic, I really struggle with. And I think we should.
We should acknowledge that in the fandom there is a feeling that this is a relationship that might become a queer relationship, that Will and Mike might eventually become a couple. I personally don't see that that writing has been done on Mike's side. I think. I think it's certainly been done on Will's side.
And I could see that Will clearly has feelings for Mike in season four. That's. I think that's. That's a really clean interpretation of season four, but I'm not quite seeing it for Mike's end yet. But Maybe.
Well, with these hour and a half episodes, hour and a half long episodes, who knows?
Andrea:Yeah, that was what I was.
Andrea:Who knows? You know, season five, we about to get like eight movies, so that's Maybe. Maybe they'll develop it.
Andrea:Yeah. And I think that's. That's where I.
Paul:It's.
Andrea:It's definitely possible. And I definitely. But I definitely feel like that's where I was.
Paul:I was thinking about in the dynamic is the DND piece is part of it. But, like, when you think about the party, everybody is like, booed up, you know, or peered up in some sort of way. And.
And so, you know, even Dustin, where you think they were excited, they surprised him, he comes back, he's like, oh, I'm going to take you all on a mission with my ham radio because I want to go talk to my girlfriend, and that's the only way I can talk to her. So now even Dustin is like, that's his mission.
Andrea:And I thought that, okay, that's already tough. But then the extra dynamic is.
Paul:Was that I'm always. I was wrestling with. And watching this again is okay because. And some of it is like. Because we know what happens in season four a little bit.
Andrea:Was in this moment, was he jealous.
Paul:Of the relationship of Ellen, Mike, you know what I mean? Was he jealous of, you know, was he upset with not only Mike, but maybe even L. Like.
Because, like, you know, in his mind, she's the one who's kind of changed this dynamic by coming into the group quite a bit. Right.
Andrea:So I don't know. I don't know what. I don't know where we're gonna land.
Paul:On that in season five. I know where it goes in season four, which we'll get a chance to talk about. But I, I did.
I did want to touch on the fact that I think, like, you know, I agree with you that they could have been a little bit more sensitive to. To Will. He kind of just ends up serving the purpose of, like, again, loss of innocence even to talk about in the end. And also this.
This kind of like human detector. Detector.
Andrea:The whole. Yeah, back of the neck.
Paul:Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're here.
Andrea:Like, that is such an overdone. It's kind of like Elle's nosebleed. Like, it's kind of. Kind of just like overdone.
It almost makes Will feel like a prop in the rest of the season and not an actual character.
Andrea:Agreed.
Andrea:And while. While Joyce has, like, multiple meltdowns about the kids when she's with Hopper and she's like, we got to get to the kids. Right. She. It's not real.
Like, I don't know. I didn't feel that her connection to Will really stood out in this season at all. Like, one of my early criticisms was season three, which I've.
I've had since it aired, was actually. The groups were too separated. You had the scoop troop doing their whole thing in the mall. You had the kids who eventually end up in the supermarket.
Right. The. The original party, plus Ellen, Max, they end up in the supermarket.
You have Joyce and Hopper off on an entirely separate plot line that's related, but only. We only really. It only converges later. And then you got Nancy and Jonathan detecting. Like, it's. It was almost too split up in the early.
Especially in episodes one through four. I felt very strongly that there were too many different storylines, and I missed some of the dynamics that made me love the story to begin with.
Like, I don't even remember. Does Joyce and Will have a scene together in chapters one through four? I don't know. Recall one.
I think the first time we see Joyce, she's in the store.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:So, yeah, I just. I think that you. We kind of, like, lost that now. It does all converge together eventually in an incredible last two episodes.
Paul:Right.
Andrea:Season chapters seven and eight are phenomenal.
Paul:Amazing.
Andrea:Great tv. Basically a movie.
Paul:Yeah, amazing.
Andrea:Really well done. But it was kind of hard for me to. I struggled through that earlier few episodes because there's things missing, like dynamics we're used to now.
We do get the new dynamics. We get Robin, we get Erica. But again in season four, then Erica kind of falls to the. A little bit to the wayside. They don't give her that much to do.
So, you know, I think this is just like a really big world with a lot of characters that we love, and it's hard to get them all integrated into this story.
And probably there are scenes that were shot and cut out and that messes with the connective tissue of the story, but I did really struggle with that. And we. We talked a lot about the parenting that Hopper does, but we didn't talk much about the.
The Wheelers and that dynamic, which is funny because they gave. They kind of give Mrs. Wheeler Wheeler her own storyline in the beginning. And then Joyce and Hopper's little romantic.
I'm gonna call it an entanglement.
Paul:Yeah, an entanglement. An entanglement. Entanglement.
Andrea:Little flashback.
Andrea:And so all of those things come together and create this really complex story that I enjoy, but it didn't quite flow the way I was used to the show being a little bit effortless.
Paul:Agreed. I agree.
Andrea:You know, if some of it felt a little, like a little bit forced.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:I mean. Yeah.
Paul:And.
Andrea:And good on them. They're doing a lot of work on.
Paul:The front end of this that, like you said, they end up landing in the second half, which, you know, we'll talk. Talk about.
Andrea:But the one thing that we know for sure is that shout out to Murray.
Paul:He knew what he was talking about. He was right. He knew. He knew it was the Ruskis. He knew the whole time that he.
Andrea:He was like, yeah, this is the Russians.
Paul:And he knew they were experimenting with the Upside Down.
Andrea:You know, we also learned in this episode that the Mind Flayer never really left.
Paul:I think. I think, like, that's a. That's a interesting takeaway that.
Andrea:I mean, at first I always thought the Mind Flayer was like, when they.
Paul:Closed the portal, locked inside the portal.
Andrea:It feels like that wasn't really so much, I guess. I guess through what the Russians are.
Paul:Doing, they're kind of opening the portal again, opening that. That place.
Andrea:But it still feels like that line.
Paul:That comes later about, you invited us. You have to let us stay. Like, it feels very much like they never really left.
Andrea:Yeah. This is a little bit ambiguous. I'm not sure it's as clear as I think. Like, I think the duffers would say this is what happened here is clear.
I'm not sure that I'm as clear on it. And I've tried to unpack this a few times, but I still have questions. So what we learn is that the Mind Flayer finds a new host in Billy.
But is this the shard of the Mind Flayer that was trapped in the world when l closed the gate and just found Billy, just went to Billy instead. Or is it that the Russians let through, let the Mind Flayer find a new route? Like, it's a little bit. You see what I'm saying? Like, the. They're.
Alexi kind of explains in. In, I think, episode five. So we're not quite there yet. What the. You know, that there was a. A wound and it didn't fully heal.
L closed the gate, but she didn't perfectly seal it. I mean, the poor girl almost died doing it, so she did her best.
But one thing I never was clear on, and this was in season two's finale, is the Mind Flayer leaves Will's body. Or so we think. Some traces of it stay behind. Right.
Paul:Still sense. Yeah, right.
Andrea:Right. And then, like, the gate gets closed. But it seems pretty clear from that, that shard of the Mind Flayer was still out in the world.
So I, I'm still not clear on. On what, what they're saying happened here.
Andrea:Yeah. And we learned.
Andrea:I also think.
Paul:Sorry.
Andrea:Oh, sorry. I also think maybe it doesn't matter that much.
Maybe like, this, this might be an area where, like, the duffers are like, really, we gave the Mind Flayer, like, two ways it could have attacked, attached itself to.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:Billy, why are you guys harping on how it did it? You know?
Paul:Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure.
Andrea:Possibility.
Andrea:No, for sure. But I think, I think that's one of the things.
Paul:That's one of the things that they. They have. They. They do better work in. In season four. But it's.
If I had to, somebody would say, well, you got to have one criticism, because it's very hard. This show is so great. It's hard to criticize it. Right.
Like, besides the episode, you know, certain things, that one episode that we talked about last time that people don't really love, I think the other criticism would be giving us enough context for the magic and this and the science. They do some things, but it feels very like, high level, like here and there.
Like, you know, they'll talk about the electromagnetic field interference, and they'll use like, you know, Mr. Clark to kind of explain these things and about, like, you know, the, The. The. The basic. The tightrope and like, different in the many worlds theory.
But the thing that, like, you know, we'll talk about it more in the next episode too. The thing I don't, you know, I don't understand is we learn more about the mind flare there too. That, that there's a.
That it can not only infiltrate the body, but can be. Infiltrate parts of the body, but not the whole person.
Andrea:So there's like, things that don't really make a lot.
Paul:I'm not really sure that they're explaining very well in this particular season that I think they cleaned up a lot in season four. I think they cleaned up a lot in season four, but this season.
Andrea:Agreed. And. And I think some of that ambiguousness was intentional. That, like, they knew they were still building out the.
The end game to the story, and so they wanted to have some wiggle room with the magic, which I think is actually really smart.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:I do not begrudge writers who give themselves some space, because as a person who watched all the seasons of the Vampire Diaries and then watch the Originals, they were. They Were building new rules every season. Like, well, we said this last season, but there's an exception. There's always an exception. And so I think.
I think it's fine. Like, I'm not. I don't lose sleep over how did Billy get possessed? Because I think they.
They've given us multiple ways, and maybe I'm just not watching. Like, I'm not interpreting it the way it's meant to be interpreted. That's also a possibility. Neither you or I are Stranger things experts. We're just.
Paul:We're just fans. Yeah, exactly. Of the world. Yeah. And I think.
Andrea:And I think, like, I think, like.
Paul:One of the things that I would think about with, With. With, like, we're talking about magic and what it is. Like, we. We notice El's powers are changing.
Like, this is a new thing that we learn, that she can go in and speak to people from the Void so they can hear her and get them to do things, or she's spying on him. And so what does that mean? Like, in the grand scheme of things, about the awareness of the Mind Flayer of her when she's in the Void.
And I think, like, you know, she's saying that the Void is safe, but is it safe? You know what I mean? Is it safe? And I think we'll find out more about that too, as we continue on. Obviously, we're not a spoiler free podcast.
We kind of know if you watch the show that it's safe. Ish. Not safe completely, but safe ish. There's things that she can do. It allows her a way to move around.
But how much of that is allowed is the question. I don't know yet.
Andrea:Yeah, I think the early piece, when they're spying on Billy and he senses her there, is kind of foreshadowing that the Mind Flayer's powers are actually evolving. Like Elle's powers, I think, are getting stronger because we're seeing El do some things she hasn't done before with more precision. Right, right.
We'll see in. In the next few episodes that Elle essentially can go into Billy's mind and look around, which she's done before. Right. When she.
She met her mother, Terry. But it wasn't precise and it was with Terry's consent. And we'll talk more about that next week. I mean, next episode.
But the fact that she can be sensed by the Mind Flayer should have been a red flag. Yeah, well, I guess she didn't know it was the Mind Flayer, but should have been a Red flag.
Paul:Yeah. Billy's like, oh, he sees me. Yeah, for sure.
Andrea:So what themes do you want to cover? I think we've covered a lot of them. We've talked about.
Andrea:We've covered them all. Yeah.
Paul:I was just thinking we've covered a lot.
Andrea:We pretty much covered all of the themes that we're going to talk about. We talked. Talked about the growing up and holding on and how friendships and relationships evolve.
We talked about the female agency with Elle, Max and Nancy all having moments where they're making choices about who they want to be in the world. And it's funny, we didn't really talk about Karen and Billy, but it's funny because Karen is a conduit for some of those conversations.
Paul:Right.
Andrea:For. For some of that theme. And she also makes a choice about who she wants to be in the world. Right.
She decides to stay with her family, not to step out on Ted, even though.
Paul:Yeah, listen. God bless.
Andrea:Listen, Karen, you should find a man your age and leave Ted behind. Leave.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:I mean, Ted is not. Ted is not an attentive husband, nor is he an attentive father, but whatever, you know, they love each other.
Paul:I get.
Andrea:I mean, she decided, like, I think that's.
Paul:I think that's one of the things with her advice when that makes it so powerful, her advice to Nancy, because I think like this, you know, you.
You kind of look at her life and you think to yourself, well, man, she has all this wisdom, not only through lived experience, but because she has the same. She has that same thing that. That we see in Nancy, that. That like, pushing for something different, being like. And you almost like.
Like trying to reaching for more, you know, out of yourself and out of your life and what you want and you almost want. She's trying to keep that alive. And Nancy. And you almost wonder where she stopped letting that be true for herself.
You know, I mean, where was the moment where she was like, oh, you know what? This is enough. I'll just. This is. This is. This is a fine enough life. Like, I'll just settle for this.
Andrea:You know, this is, again, great storytelling because I don't think they've told us this about Karen at all.
But because of what we know, I think Karen was probably one of those young women who just chose a safer path and decided that she wasn't going to let her daughter do that.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:You know, I think that she. She did the traditional thing. She got married fairly young, because I think Karen is only supposed to be, like, in her mid to late 30s.
She got married fairly young. She married someone who was financially stable. But maybe she didn't. Wasn't head over heels in love. I'm sure her and Ted, she liked Ted.
They had a good relationship. And she went down a path that wasn't. Didn't really take big risk. And now she's got these two, these three young people that are her children.
I don't think she wants them to do the same. I think she wants Nancy and Mike and Holly to pursue their dream dreams.
And now that she has made the sacrifice that they've grown up in a financially secure situation, they can do that. We don't know if Karen had that option when she was, you know, Nancy's age. Maybe Karen. First of all, Karen didn't have.
Probably didn't have as many options of where to go to college.
Paul:Right, right.
Andrea:You know, I mean, in fairness, Nancy's going to a school that was originally an all girls school. So it's a little, you know, like Emerson was initially.
Andrea:I love your Emerson alumni like thing. It's like super hard right now.
Andrea:Meant to wear my Emerson shirt today, but then I decided, because this is a total aside, this is like a total tangent. When that shirt premiered on Stranger Things, the Emerson community was so tickled by it that they actually created.
That was the old design of Emerson shirts. That design still existed when I was a freshman at Emerson, but Emerson went through a rebrand and so they re. They bought back that design.
So now I have in the same color, Nancy Wheeler's T shirt with my alma mater on it. So listen, great for the. I don't. And I've never been able to find the connection. I've never been able to find the connection.
The duffers did not go to Emerson. I could not find a single person in the writing room who went to Emerson. They just picked Emerson for some reason.
Paul:Really?
Andrea:Yeah, there's no. There's no real connection there that I can find. I.
There's a producer, I think, who may have attended Emerson for graduate school, but even that connection was a little tenuous. So I don't know.
Paul:My professor, the professor and the head of the film department I was in, in college, ended up leaving our school and going to become the dean at Emerson a little after you graduated. And I always think about that when I see Emerson's stuff. I think about you and I think.
Andrea:About him and I think about the.
Paul:Many times they kicked my daughter. Went to school in Boston, so kicked our ass in volleyball.
Andrea:And I had to, like, tell you.
Paul:Your school beat us.
Andrea:Yeah, I mean, we. The. The women's sports at Emerson were. Were quite good when I was there. I don't know if they're still good.
Paul:Yeah, very good.
Andrea:But, like, this is such a tiny school. But the pride. I remember the Emerson alum Facebook group went nuts when this episode came out. They were like, look at Nancy. She's got the old design.
So there's a Back to Karen.
Andrea:There's a similar reaction that we'll get back to in season four that I will talk about to the kids at.
Paul:School in season four.
Andrea:There's a similar reaction that I'll talk about.
Andrea:I remember that. Yeah. So back to Karen and Nancy. I just think that she wants Nancy to make smarter choices than her because she had. She can.
Paul:Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
Andrea:Yeah, I think. I think. And anyway, I'm a. I'm a Wheeler family. Women of the Wheeler family. Stan. I love Karen, Love Nancy, Mike and Ted. I could do it with.
Paul:How we doing with Holly? How are we doing Holly on the bubble? Let's see. She has some good.
Andrea:She has a good moment later in the season.
Paul:Let's see what happens next season. Let's go.
Andrea:Well, we'll. We will talk a lot more about Holly Wheeler. Holly next. Next episode. Because I have. I got some.
Andrea:I got some takes. So I guess I'll just say this.
Paul:To close out this particular run of episodes.
You know, I think, like, we talked a lot about the introduction of identity and forming your own identity, finding your ability to connect to what that means, and the evolving nature of relationships and change, the lost innocence. But I also think we would be remiss to not talk about closing the symbolism of what's happening in this portion of the story.
The magnets really do serve as an object that's showing that, hey, something's not working here. And it's really a metaphor for the whole town. Something's not working.
Can we ever have something at Hawkins that's introduced that doesn't have something underneath it that's. That's really tough to.
Andrea:Really rotten. Right?
Paul:So the.
Andrea:It's the.
Paul:It's the American dream turned upside down. Like, they have a mall.
Andrea:It's glittering. It's beautiful, but beneath it, there is.
Paul:Definitely a rotting core and something that you have to look at. And I think that.
Andrea:The cost of.
Paul:Progress is always on display in this storytelling that they're telling in this show.
And I find it fascinating every time we get the nostalgia, but we also feel the trauma of what it takes to move things forward and to change and to progress. It seems like they're making a statement here about progress and its cost.
Andrea:Totally. We see. We see that in the characters. We see that in the town. We see that in even the. The more nefarious elements, like, they're.
They're making progress, too, but it requires sacrifice. So I. I think that's a various two observation, especially about the symbolism of the magnets of the mall. It's. It's all there.
Paul:Great.
Andrea:So, yeah, so that'll do it for season three, episodes one through four. We will be back next episode to cover season three, episodes five through eight. We just appreciate you all traveling with us to Hawkins.
Hit us up Kinfolklor Pod on Instagram, also on Tik Tok and Twitter, and hit us up email@kinfolkloregmail.com and we will see you next time.
Andrea:Bye, everyone.
