Episode 7

Kinfolklore: Stranger Things Sn.4 (Chapters 1-5)

Welcome back to Kinfolklore, where Andrea and Paul dive deep into the fantasy and sci-fi worlds we love. Few shows capture that blend of nostalgia, terror, and friendship quite like Stranger Things.

This episode, we’re Diving chaos and heartbreak of Stranger Things 4, the year is 1986. The music is Kate Bush, the vibe trauma, guilt, and horror. In preparation for the final season dropping this November, Andrea and Paul are rewatching every episode from the very beginning, continuing their coverage here with Season 4, Chapters 1-5

Transcript
Andrea:

. The year is:

The music, obviously, Kate Bush. The vibe, trauma, guilt, and horror. I'm Andrea.

Paul:

And I'm Paul. And we're cousins who dive into fantasy and sci fi shows that we love.

Few shows have captured our hearts and the group chat quite like Stranger Things.

Andrea:

In preparation for the final season, we're rewatching the whole saga from Hawkins to the Upside Down. Today we're covering season four, chapters one through five.

The beginning of a darker, more emotional ride that reminds us sometimes the scariest monsters are the one inside us. And we will be spoiling all. Obviously, four seasons. This is not a spoiler free podcast. So we will talk.

Even though we're talking about just chapters one through five here. We will talk about, you know, we'll reference the other chapters as well as we continue through the episode.

Paul:

My fingers are like arrows. My arms like iron. My feet like spears. So Kin Folklore will have adult content. So if you like boobies, like she likes boobies.

Cause Vicky definitely likes boobies.

Andrea:

Mm, she sure do.

Paul:

Pause the fast times at Ridgemont High at 53 minutes and 5 seconds. Bring in a ringer to your Cult of Vecna campaign. And let's go. Erica.

Andrea:

Oh my God, I love her. She's so good in this season.

Paul:

Who knew she was gonna be this good in one year?

Andrea:

I know. It's kind of crazy that she just got the D and D stuff a year ago and she's already so good.

Paul:

Oh, so good. So we're going to talk about chapters one to three. Hellfire Club, Vecna's curse, the monster and the superhero to kick things off.

So we open up this season with a get ready with me to die for. Okay, everyone's least favorite scientist, Dr. Brenner. He's getting his shave, he's doing his crossword puzzle. Getting his mind right.

You know, I wake up at 5:30 in the morning and I wash my face. I also have my favorite breakfast to make sure that it's protein bound. I sit down and I read my favorite crossword puzzle to get the mind working.

And then it's off to work throwing a favorite suit. This guy is a trip. Oh, my God. It's not.

Andrea:

It didn't remind you of a certain, you know, soon to be former New York City mayor?

Paul:

A disgraced mayor. The look what I do all day but doesn't do anything by the name of Eric Adams. Yes, that's exactly what it reminded me of.

Andrea:

As soon as I saw it, I was like, I mean, he does more in the morning than Eric Adams does. At least there's that.

Paul:

It's crazy. It is so crazy. He did actually go to work and do something, which is something to commit.

His life really does seem quite boring though, other than when he is torturing children for a living.

,:

Terrible to see the massacre, the way it goes down. Even Brenner is shook. I think when you see Brenner shook, it makes you even more shook because he's normally okay with the chaos and the fuckery.

So it's horrible to see. It reminded me a lot of.

And we'll talk more about some of the things that I think these things reference it for, for them when we get into the episode. But definitely reminded me of Darth Vader coming in with the Merking, all the Padawans. So that was.

Andrea:

I'm sorry, that is not funny. That is not funny at all. It's just funny to me because of the conversations that we've had.

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

About Star wars and also the conversations I've had with my husband about Star Wars. You guys are both big fans. I am not.

And so it's like I'm constantly like, I don't know anything about Star wars, but I, I know Anakin killed the children.

Paul:

He killed a bunch of children. Just killed. Killed up children.

And there's a lot of tie ins to this, especially what the duffers say later about how they are in season five going to be pulling from Star wars and pulling from Darth Vader. So it, it's very fascinating, this whole, this whole thing.

So in:

She's writing these letters to Mike that as you see what's playing out for her, you realize it's not accurate. Back home, Mike and Dustin, super deep into the Hellfire Club. They are in their D and D era under the chaotic rule of one Eddie Munson. Wow.

Cannot wait to get into this stuff with Eddie.

Andrea:

Such A good entrance.

Paul:

Lucas, however, is chasing normalcy. He's chasing fitting in. He's tired of getting picked on, as he says. He just wants to fit in.

And he has gone to playing basketball on the basketball team.

Andrea:

Warming that bench.

Paul:

Warming the bench very much so. A bench warmer.

Andrea:

Keeping that bench warm.

Paul:

He went from playing DD in the basement to all of a sudden trying to be Michael Jordan. Just because he saw it on TV did not mean he was gonna be like Mike.

Chrissy Cunningham is introduced in this portion of the story, and she's haunted by trauma. She's seeking drugs to find comfort from the things that she's experiencing. She seeks out Eddie for those drugs.

But she also becomes Vecna's first victim. And one of the show's most chilling scenes that we've seen and how somebody gets done in.

It felt like, is somebody blood bending in this motherfucker? What is happening?

Andrea:

I remember how I felt when I first watched that scene. I was stunned to silence. And I have to be honest, on the rewatch, I was then stunned again to silence because I had forgotten how gruesome it is.

It's absolutely horrible.

Paul:

Yeah. Yeah.

Andrea:

And considering that, like, a few minutes ago. Well, at the beginning of this episode, we watch children die, right. That it shouldn't be. Nothing should top that. Right? This. It is. It is.

Is some of their best horror work, for sure.

Paul:

Yeah. It's a lot of death in this first. In this first run, in this first episode to the first few episodes. It's rough.

You know, Max is definitely going through it. We see that she's showing symptoms of the curse as well. She notices. I thought that was very well done.

That she notices Chrissy coming out of the same counselor's office that she goes to. We'll talk a lot more about that. Nancy and Fred, her deputy editor at the school paper, dig into the old Krill murders.

They kind of stumble into that a little bit. Like, they get there and then they realize that this with the uncle telling Nancy, hey, this is what I think is responsible, not Eddie.

And, you know, Dustin names their new monster. As usual. Dustin bringing in the D and D into, hey, this is what's happening. He names their new monster Vecna.

Meanwhile, Hopper is alive in the Soviet Union.

Andrea:

I mean, I'm happy Hopper's alive, but you know how I feel about the Soviet Union.

Paul:

The Russia plot is gonna get a lot of commentary in this run episodes. There's no question about it. It's happening.

Joyce and Murray go full Cold War comedy, tried to save him this is definitely where his fingers are like a knife. His arms are like iron. Fighting fucking 13 year olds. This is what's happening. And they're trying to save him.

And Brenner returns from the grave to help Ellen regain her powers.

Andrea:

Chapters four and five. Dear Billy and the Nina Project. Riddled with guilt and terror. Max writes goodbye letters and says bye to her mom, which honestly was heartbreaking.

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

And visits Billy's grave where Vecna tries to get her. The running up that hill sequence turns her grief into survival, making music a weapon against her own despair.

And we will talk extensively about that scene because it was one of the most incredible scenes of the show and had everyone singing that song for the rest of the summer. Actually, honestly, I never stopped singing it.

Paul:

No, I've been singing it this whole time running up to the show right now. I'm still running up that hill. Like, I'm still doing it.

Andrea:

You know, I've always loved that song, but that moment just made it took it to a new level for me.

Paul:

100%.

Andrea:

L. Now with Dr. Owens, who is still being responsible and seems to actually care about Elle and Brenner in Project, Nina is reliving her own trauma that she has repressed, trapped in the looping memory of this lab massacre. Joyce and Murray. I don't. Do we have to talk about them?

Paul:

We do really have to talk about Joyce and Murray.

Andrea:

All right, all right. I mean, listen, the. The best Hopper dialogue from the whole show comes from this. These stretches of episodes. So fine, fine.

If I have to put up with the plane antics and the crash landing and all of that.

Paul:

The only thing. No, forget about the plane antics and the crash landing. We'll get to that. You're going to talk about that.

But one of the best things about Joycen Murray was when she actually gets the first initial package and this motherfucker is walking her through, smashing the freaking doll.

Andrea:

Dropping the doll. And they're dropping the paint can on the doll. Yeah, yeah.

Paul:

And then the kids walk in and Murray's just there cooking dinner. And they're like, who is? Like, what? What's happening? Oh, my God. How did Murray get here? And he's like, oh, I was in town. Yeah, right.

Murray and I just gotta go to Alaska. It's hilarious. What a run.

Andrea:

Yeah, it's. Okay, fine. I like Joyce and Murray together, so I'll put up with it.

But getting back to the main story, meanwhile, Hopper has been trying to actively get out of prison this whole time. Hopper gets captured, he delivers his devastating. I Am the curse speech, which I want to talk about much more.

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

And by the end of chapter five, Elle begins to remember what happened to her. Max has narrowly. Narrowly survived Vecna. And Hawkins realizes, yeah, the nightmare has evolved but never really left.

Paul:

Okay, this is a lot of liquor that's about to be spilled. A lot. I mean, this is a lot. I just want to see.

Andrea:

This is like Game of Thrones level four. One out.

Paul:

Unbelievable amounts of carnage. So first, we're going to start with the lab children. The children who went down in the lab. We're going to pour one out for them. Obviously.

Chrissy Cunningham. Sweet, haunted, gone too soon. Even remembered that she did, in fact, know Eddie. I thought that scene with them we'll talk more about was great.

Fred Benson. You know, Nancy did say she's gone through a lot of editors. I don't think this is what she had in mind.

Poor Fred Benson had a haunted past that we find out about. Patrick McKinney, Jason's teammate. And then Agent Harmonies. You know, Agent Harmon holds a very, very clear distinction.

Agent Harmon has a nickname that is up there with Sparky. Sparky Boom Man. So let's talk like, unnamed hero agent.

Andrea:

I'm so glad I put my glass of water down. Or my jug of water. Rather.

Paul:

Unnamed hero agent man that Argyle, like, calls like. And they just keep running with this. Like, Mike is unnamed hero agent man. And I'm sitting here like, why? This man had a. He had a name.

Andrea:

I actually had him in the outline as unnamed Agent hero man. And then I was like, that's disrespectful.

Paul:

So let's pour one out for all of our fallen soldiers from this run of episodes. This goes out to all our fallen homies.

Andrea:

Yo, don't let the chin get like that, y'.

Paul:

All. All right. Okay. Oh, wow. Unnamed hero agent man is. I listen to that. I was like, who is naming these people? Sokka? Like, what's happening?

All right, so let's talk about. Let's kick it off with Elle's letters. Why? Why is she lying to Mike? What do you think it is?

Andrea:

I think El is very vulnerable. I don't really know, to be honest. I've thought about this a lot, and I'm not really clear on why she's lying to Mike.

I think Elle is feeling extremely vulnerable. She does know that Mike and Hopper are both. Well, Hopper. She thinks Hopper is dead, but she knows that they worry about her.

And so I wonder if it's just to protect him, but it just seems.

Paul:

I don't know.

Andrea:

There's a lot of people in this episode who are spending significant these episodes who are spending significant time lying to each other. Nancy and Jonathan are not being truthful.

Obviously Will is holding back and Elle not telling Mike what's going on and not confiding and trying to be strong. I think she is a self protective thing, but I don't really have a good answer for this one.

Paul:

I think she reveals it a little bit later, but I think it's connected to her perception of what Mike's feelings are, how he's writing this, you know, from Mike. From Mike. How he couldn't say he loved her at the end of last season. How she has to say I love you too, Mike, and like walk away.

How he hasn't really, you know, he hasn't been able to. So I think she's protecting herself a little bit. I think she's kind of like, I want him to think everything's good.

I want him to know that I'm settled in. I want him to know that I'm doing fine because maybe that will get him, nudge him to, to come closer. Uh, you know, she's counting the day she.

Mike is kind of her world once her dad is gone. And I don't think that she's really fit into the new, new place. And I don't know that she's totally settled in.

Even though I believe Joyce, I think I'm going to be honest, I don't think Will's doing a great job at being a brother in some of this run of it. I think that he's struggling there. But I do think that Joyce and Jonathan have tried their best to bring her into the family.

You can feel the vibe that Joyce is like, what that that's, that's happened. Um, but yeah, I think that's part of what I think is happening for El.

And it could be because of how Mike's perception of El, like, you know, even in the beginning, you know, like when, when Dustin and him are comparing girlfriends and he's like, you know, my girlfriend did say. He's like, you do know that like Elle saved the world like multiple times. He doesn't like.

Andrea:

No, it's really concerning the way he talks about. I mean, Dustin is saying that Susie is a genius.

Yeah, obviously Ella's not a genius the way she's not like a computer science savant the way that Susie is.

But the way he, he reduces her to her, her abilities, her powers, something that is innate in her and not who she is as A person is a real contrast to a speech that happens mere minutes later when Nancy is talking about Jonathan and Jonathan is talking about Nancy. While those two are having problems, they're talking about their qualities.

Nancy is talking about how Jonathan is a moral, good person, and Jonathan is talking about Nancy's drive and ambition and how important the newspaper is to her and how everything she does, she does to the best of it. And, you know, Mike is talking about 11. Like, oh, well, she has superpowers, right? She's a superhero. And that is a little disturbing.

Like, it is true. And we love Elle because she's a badass and she has superpowers. But that's not the only thing about El that we as the audience care about.

The fact that he doesn't have. He doesn't, in that moment, have just something else to say about who she is. He's talking about her Elle in the past. And El doesn't exist anymore.

She doesn't have powers anymore.

Paul:

Right?

Andrea:

Instead of the Elle in the moment.

Paul:

Who I think is trying to do what. We'll talk a lot more about this with what Eddie speaks about forced conformity.

I think she's trying to be smaller because she just wants to fit in and conform and be into. She could be struggling and working every day to try to get her powers back and try to figure it out. She's like, okay, you know what?

Maybe this is better. Maybe I can just be a normal kid and fit in here and try to, like, do this this way.

And I think what you're saying about how she perceives Mike seeing her is playing into the way that she's responding. And she says, so she says, you don't love me anymore. You just. You know, you just care about me. Like, care. Like, you know, it says from Mike.

From Mike. From Mike when she confronts him in the room when they have that fight. And I don't know that Mike has a very good response to it.

I don't know that he really responds very well to it.

And I think she's perceiving that feeling of, like, well, maybe he's only, like, into me because one day my powers will come back, so I'm gonna be as normal as I possibly can to see whether he really is, you know, cares, you know? So.

Andrea:

Yeah, And I have to be honest. I don't really love how the whole love thing is with how, like, used in. In the plot, you know, it's. It's very cliche of, like, a teenage romance.

Like, the moment that she. She. She's Struggling in her powers, right in the void, fighting with Vecna. That's when Mike is like, I love you. I can't live without you.

So this whole thing is. Is very. I find it deeply frustrating, but I think it's supposed to be. I think.

I think we're supposed to start this season with everything feeling a little bit emotionally fraught. Like, this is not a season where everyone. All the relationships are still intact. Like, what happened to them in that mall really changed things.

Paul:

I agree. I think. I think this is a big part of it. I think that this shared trauma has affected each of them in different ways, and they don't.

And they're all processing it in real time, even down to, like, look what Mike's doing. First of all, Mike, like, reading letters, full tighty whities, about to be late to school. Zero. Shit.

We're just gonna assume he did a shower the night before because his ability to get ready that fast and run out with Nancy, kind of wild. This man is unbathed. But, you know, you can tell that they're all processing this different ways. And Max is really having a hard time.

We see it that this is like a theme of this run of episodes about what Max is struggling with. You know, since we last saw Max, she was, you know, kind of laughing and joking and making fun of Dustin about the never ending story.

And then she goes back home and she's really quiet. Well, it's got even worse than that. You know, her stepdad has left since Billy died. Her mom and her had to move into a trailer.

Her mom is drinking heavily. You know, headaches and nightmares are occurring. She's very closed off in her communication with the rest of the crew. She's closer.

I mean, it's frosty with her and Lucas in when he's standing on the court and she's in the stands. And, you know, it's very strange. Some of the exchanges are very, very tough. You know, like, it's like you're not even here anymore.

It's like you're a ghost or something. Maybe you should find something that you're really into too. Lucas says to Max, tough stuff from Lucas, but he's trying to nudge her. What.

What do you think about this whole. How we're introduced to where Max is in the beginning of the season? What are your takes on it?

Andrea:

I think it's a really good demonstration of depression. Yeah, I think. I think that Max's whole storyline is some of the better representation I've seen of how grief and depression play out on screen in.

In teenagers. And this is in the. You know, we're talking in this episode.

In this episode about the chapter where she has that moment that she's running back to her life. But there's part of Max's setup in these first three episodes that does feel like she's kind of apathetic about life, that she's kind of removed.

She doesn't care anymore. And that is how depression plays out in a lot of people. A lot of people think depression is like, you sit in bed all day and you cry.

Depression can look really different in everyone. But many people with depression withdraw. They withdraw from their relationships. Nothing brings them joy.

They're not able to be part of the communities that they used to. Her grades are slipping. She. She's pushing away help. All the alarm bells should be going off for one with Max. And Lucas is trying. You know, he's.

These kids are what, 14?

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

You know, they're. I think they're freshmen. And so Lucas is trying.

He's doing his best, but it is kind of a rough conversation when he's like, maybe you should find something you care about. And. And Max, like, flinches, kind of like.

Paul:

Yeah. What is that supposed to mean?

Andrea:

Yeah, it's. It's a tough scene. But, you know, later Lucas will say, I'm sorry I didn't see you, but I see you now, right?

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

But in rewatching this scene, I actually went back today and just watched this scene. I was like, actually, Lucas was doing his best at 14.

Paul:

I agree. No, I agree.

Andrea:

He was being kind of hard on himself. He was doing his very best. He's. He's trying to connect with her. He's telling her, I can see something is wrong.

Paul:

And I've also tried to find something for myself to fit in and get integrated into high school. Maybe that would be also helpful because it would take your mind off of what's wrong. That's kind of where I think he was going with it.

It wasn't meant to be harsh, you know?

Andrea:

Yeah. With some distance from the season, I understand Lucas better. You know, when I first.

The first time I watched a season, I was so annoyed with, like, all the boys except for Dustin. I was irritated with Mike. I was mad at Will. And we'll talk about why I was mad at Will in a little bit. But, like, I was very irritated with Lucas.

And upon rewatch, I'm. I realize, okay, what Lucas is doing actually makes sense. Lucas was unhappy, being bullied, being othered. Being out on the outside.

He decided, I'm actually gonna go on the. Try to be on the inside. I'm gonna try to be. To be normal. Right. And that's not only understandable, it's valid.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to fit in.

Paul:

No, I agree.

Andrea:

Despite Eddie's speech about wanting to. About conformity and all that, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be normal. There's nothing wrong with that.

Like, it's a totally natural thing for humans to feel, but especially for young people to feel.

Paul:

But I think that that's. That's where I. I kind of see Eddie's speech. And we'll. We're about. You know, we'll talk about it in a second.

About forced conformity, killing the kids. Right. And what Lucas is attempting to do and what El is trying to do as a thread that connects these different storylines. Because I kind of.

I kind of. Yeah, I kind of feel like Lucas is battling a couple of things, actually. All the things that you just said. And also, we tend to.

Not we, you know, not you and me, but as a fan base, they tend to talk about it. He's also one of the few black kids in the whole Freaking. In the whole area.

So it's like, not only am I, you know, dealing with being the nerd or the weirdo or the outcast in that way, I'm also dealing with being in a minority in a town like that that looks at me a certain way, and he's trying to navigate all of those things at the same time. And I think, like, that's, you know, it's a.

It's a. I know for myself, this was a world that I honestly, it was brought stuff for me because I know as a young person, I was a person who loved all of the Star wars stuff, was very into nerd culture, and also had athletic ability and wanted to play sports and wanted that feeling of competition and being involved with that, and it was hard to straddle that fence. So I really resonated with what Lucas did there. Also, I shared this with you earlier. You and me were talking about this.

We've talked about this numerous times. Jane, AKA L's high school is the actual high school that I transferred to in my junior year of high school in New Mexico.

They say California, that's a high school in New Mexico where they shot that. You can see that Eagles thing in the background. Those are the Golden Eagles. I played on that basketball team, and I tried to fit in there. And I feel.

And I was one of the few black kids in that school system over there. And it felt weird. There was a weird vibe of coming from Queens, New York, to this other place.

So, like, if you put Elle's experience in that school and Luca's experience in that school together in a blender, it's a lot of how I felt as a kid. And I think more kids feel like that than not.

And so to your point, reaching for normalcy is part of how you feel like you'll solve that problem, how you'll scratch that itch of, like, how do I get away from, like, being this kind of, like, this outcast or people noticing me? And so I really resonate with what Lucas is attempting to do for himself.

How he pleas with both Mike and Dustin about, just please show up to my game and just give me this. Like, he's not, like, saying, I don't care about you guys. He's just saying, hey, I need this. Like. And I think, like, that was.

They understood it as friends. They kind of. They weren't happy about it, but they walked away like, okay, he's not coming.

Andrea:

Real bummer that not only we find out later that Erica has gone to every single game, that even though she. She trash talks him, she insults him, that she's gone to every single game.

It's real sad that, like, all three of them, his two best friends, plus Erica missed the game.

Paul:

Yes, I am sad that they missed him hitting the game winning shot. But I do want to call out black excellence when you see it, that both these Sinclair kids were clutch in different ways. She rolled the D20.

He's hitting the gay winning shot. And at the same night, they are, like, out here, like, yo, we did. We carried the town of Hawkins on our back.

Andrea:

Two tournaments to Sinclair winners.

Paul:

Exactly. I am. I am pumped about that. That made me happy.

Andrea:

Yeah. So I did want to just circle back to Max for a second and talk about the running up that hill moment.

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

Because it is so iconic, and I think it put Stranger Things on a new level.

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

It was the first time, I think I ever saw a moment from Stranger Things break through to mainstream media, not just entertainment media, but to just a regular Main Street. Like, I. They had stories about this on, like, cnn, about how that scene put Kate Bush back on the charts for the first time in, like, 40 years.

Really incredible use of both music. The lyrics from the song are. Are perfect for the moment imagery. I mean, when you think of her running through.

What I think we are meant to understand is Vecna's mind. Vecna's void, not his mind. I think where I've settled, and I think I said in a previous episode that it's Vecna's mind.

I actually think this is Vecna's void, which we should unpack one day. Like what exactly we think the void is, because I don't think that's been really explained either.

But when you see her running through Vecna's void with this, all this imagery behind her, it's literally collapsing around her. That is what trying to get out of depression feels like.

You take a few steps, and then something comes down in front of you and prevents and slows you down. Something knocks you over, something. It is such a beautiful representation of what. A visual representation of what depression feels like.

And I've only ever seen one other depiction in film or television do it as well. And that's everything everywhere, all at once, huh? I think that this was so powerful. And also, there's so many things.

There's just so much going on in the scene. Like, you're focused as an audience on that little hole where you can see Dustin Lucas and Steve absolutely freaking out, right?

And because, you know, if she can get to that, if she can get there, then she's. She'll be okay. But there's so much going on in Vecna's void that you're like, what is actually.

What is this, like, falling apart world around her, right? And then in addition to that, her.

Her want to live, her absolute survival skills that kick in after we've watched her be essentially apathetic for two full episodes. I mean, in three, she's a little. I think a little bit less. But I. I think that the scene just was, like, set up so well.

It really paid off as a moment. And it was. I remember our group chat was.

Paul:

Was like, oh, my God, are you kidding me?

Andrea:

When we got to episode four, I think. I think I got there first because I have no life. And so I think I got there first and I was like, guys, prepare yourself.

And then, like, as everyone started to get to that moment, we were all like, wow, tears.

Paul:

Tears. Like, legit tears. Like, I gotta say, like, first seeing was Max's spirit. It was everything that you just shared.

But I also just think, you know, you see all these other people die, and you see Max came into this show as an addition to the party, and you see her flashback in her memory of all the things that have been that were brought into her life through having these people in her life and all that she's bought and all the memories. And that snaps her out of, like, even the thought of giving up and letting Vecna win. And she is probably one of the first.

She's the first person that we see actually stop Vecna from doing what he's intent on doing. And it is the party and that shared bond that does that by finding out that music has this real connection to being able to stop this from happening.

I think there's so many things, like one of the things that Dr. Hatch says that unlocks this moment. They set it up so well. It's so casual. He says one of the most popular areas in the listening room is the listening room.

We found that music has a particularly common effect on the broken mind. The right song, particularly one which holds some personal meaning, can prove a salient stimulus. But there are those whose mind is beyond cure.

And then you see that after they set that up and they find out and realize that this is what happened to Victor Creel and all of those things that Max is like, sitting there, that Max is like, okay, is she beyond repair? Will she not be able to fight back? Is she gonna give in? No, she's not.

She's gonna take a piece and a chunk of Vecna with her and she's gonna run out of there. And it's beautiful. It's just. It's so moving. Them fighting for her and her fighting for them is what makes that scene. It's not the monster.

It's not the fact that she might die. It is the shared love of friendship and found family that we all had collectively in that moment. We're all in there collectively.

And when you were like, wait till you get to four. We start watching. Even us chatting in the group chat. We're experiencing this together. And this is what makes us love these stories.

Andrea:

Absolutely. Like, I. It was set up really well. And I. What I particularly love about that is that she catches Vecna by surprise.

Paul:

Right.

Andrea:

He doesn't see, he doesn't seem to have considered this. It's a weakness he hadn't anticipated.

Paul:

Right.

Andrea:

It's never happened to him before. And so it really makes you wonder, like, Chrissy and Fred maybe had a chance.

They maybe had an opportunity to survive if they had just had something, music or otherwise. It tethered them to. To. And that activated their. Their. Their want to survive, to get away.

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

But this. This moment is. We could talk. We could do a whole episode just on episode four.

Paul:

Right.

Andrea:

But we're not going to. But this woman is just. It's so it's, it's honestly one of the best things that the Duffers ever put together.

Actually, I believe Dear Billy is written by the same woman who wrote the first Shadow, Kate Teffrey. I might be saying her name wrong. I'll, I'll check, but I think it might. I, I don't think this is an episode the Duffers wrote.

But anyway, incredible episode.

Paul:

Yeah, I, I, I love it. I love the episode. I love this moment. I love the choice of song.

I love that they were able to bring a whole generation into, like, Kate Bush, you know, I mean, people were, like, into looking up other songs and seeing her videos and checking out was really great.

Andrea:

And I confess something to you, okay, so I didn't know this was a Kate Bush song.

Paul:

I remember you told me this. Oh, you got to say it. I go, that's great. That's a great story.

Andrea:

regular playlist since around:

Paul:

I remember you said that.

Andrea:

And to be honest with you, I still kind of prefer that version for some things, but certainly the Kate Bush version, the original has a special place in my heart now. But I still think that. I just think it's really fun because when I heard it on the show, I was like, oh, a cover of this song.

Paul:

I remember you telling me that. And we cracked up about it, and I was like. And that made me go, listen to the other version, because I had never heard that version.

Because Friends of the Pod, I know that there's been people who have reached out to us outside of the Lost Boys or other things. I have not really done the Vampire Diaries. I've been being nudged. Andrea is pushing me, but I have not really done that show.

So I had not heard the version before you told me about it.

Andrea:

Kate Trefry has not. Did not write Dear Billy.

Paul:

Sorry.

Andrea:

She did write another episode. She wrote the Nina Project, which is the episode after this.

Paul:

Oh, that's a great. That's. That's also one that has a really big thing around music that I hope we get to talk about as well.

The mute and because really, that's what I think a lot of the payoff here is we found it again. We were doing our rewatch, you know, but with starting from Should I stay or Should I go? But what we're. The.

There's a thesis here that has been present through the whole series that I think the doctor at the mental institution, Dr. Hatch says and then Robin reiterates, and that is that music is. Can be a lifeline back to reality. And that music can touch a part of the brain. Right. That words cannot.

And I think that this keeps showing up over and over and over and over and over again in this series. So I think it's going to have some part to play in end game of this whole entire thing.

Andrea:

I totally agree. I think one of the things that I wanted to talk about and what we learned is we learned that Vecna has weaknesses.

And so I do think it's going to be interesting to see how those weaknesses are deployed. Now. You can't repeat the same thing over and over again. Vecna now knows this is a weakness of his. Right.

But is it a weakness that he can actually control or, you know, or plan for, rather? Or is it something that is just. He has to kind of deal with? And I have. We'll talk about the trailer in another episode.

But I have some theories about what we're seeing in the trailer as well. In terms of using sound and. Or music is resistance.

Paul:

Yeah.

And also how the Duffers use non diegetic sound to tell stories on top of their adding of sound that's happening in the story that the characters can hear.

I thought one use of that talking about Max's name with Max and Lucas, because we've been talking about them a lot, which I think they have a great run, this whole run of episodes is there's the song that's playing when they're driving to go see her mom and for her to drop off the letters. The lyrics of that song are everything I think that Lucas would want to say to Max in that moment. And it's just beautiful.

Like, you talk a lot, but you don't say much in the things you do. You're always right in all our fights because no one else can shut you down or you turn around or turn you around. You should see yourself.

Like, he's like, basically, it's like those words. He's looking at her as this song is playing. Like, almost like, I wish you could see you how I see you.

And it's just beautiful the way the Duffers do that. Their music supervisor. I don't want to give them all.

I know people work collaboratively, but the way that they have worked collaboratively as storytellers to use music to put words in the character's mouth that aren't even spoken, where you don't need to force it through dialogue is absolutely amazing. I just love it.

Andrea:

Yeah. And I've been thinking a lot about how TV shows are often written. Assuming we're scrolling through our phones.

They don't seem to build by too much into that. You know, they're not writing. They're still showing a lot.

You know, there are times where I think there's too much exposition and there's too much telling and not showing that happened. They. They use Dustin like that all the time. All the time, all the time. Like, even.

Even right before Max goes to say goodbye, when Dustin is essentially explaining everything to Steve. That's a very much like. Just in case you were scrolling through your phone. Let's catch you up.

However, there's lots that they do in this season that you absolutely cannot look away. Like, I have tried to watch this as kind of like background. It doesn't really work that way if you're trying.

If you're trying to pay attention to the details at all, because there are long scenes where you very, like, go talking about the Nina project, which is chapter five. There are a lot of scenes where there's no. Elle doesn't speak hardly at all, or no one really speaks.

You're just kind of watching the children and watching Ellen flashing back to these experiences from when she was, I guess, around 8 years old. Although Elle looks a lot younger than that to me. But I. I just think that the way that they use sound visuals, it. It's.

It just is what makes the show so rich and layered. And I truly appreciate it because it's. It's gotten better with every season. With every season, they've.

They've made it more textured and layered and complex. And the storytelling feels really comprehensive in a way that it's obviously not perfect there.

I have lots of quibbles, but in a way that a lot of other fantasy shows are other. All special effects and very little done in other ways.

And I don't want to call out any particular shows, but there are a few sci fi shows and fantasy shows where I'm there. I'm either there for the characters, or I'm there for how beautiful it looks, or I'm there for the concepts, but I am not there for everything.

Paul:

Don't spend a billion dollars on a fantasy show. You know what I mean? I'm just saying I wasn't trying to chase. Tried to change George rr. You know what I mean? Like, it's fine.

Andrea:

It wasn't gonna be me. I wasn't gonna say it, but. And no disrespect to people who really enjoy that show.

Paul:

I love that Show. I actually. There's parts of it I like. I know you. We differ on that. Best parts of it. I like.

Andrea:

I mean, I still haven't finished season one.

Paul:

Oh, it's great.

Andrea:

But, yeah, it's not really to knock. I think this is hard. It's hard to do this. And I also think this is why this show takes so long to make.

In addition to all the other elements that have. Have delayed it. The pandemic, the strikes, all of that is fair. But I also think that they, like, really take their time because they.

They are trying to level up, trying to build up, trying to get all of these. These elements right, to make it almost feel like an immersive experience. Like, and these episodes, the.

you're in the Hawkins lab in:

Paul:

It's so. It's. It. Yeah. And, I mean, I was struck.

You know, we've been talking about music, and we've been talking about all these different things, and you mentioned the Nina Project, and we've been talking about how you feel like you're part of it. And the layers there's.

In the Nina Project episode, I was struck by the layers that I didn't catch before about Brenner and Elle coming back together.

And there's the Luke part, but then there's the part where he speaks over the loudspeaker and he tells her this story about the opera that was written by a woman who was an opera named Nina that was written by. About a lover who lost her lover and didn't know. And she kept showing up to the train, like, looking for her lover, and she basically.

He basically says, hey, you know, like, take the next step. You know, if only Nina had known the truth, like, she would have moved the next step.

But while he's saying that, there's a song in the opera playing, and I'm going to butcher the title, but the song of the opera is called Quad Les Bien a Me Reverendra. And that is by the same person who wrote the opera. And the song's translation means when the beloved returns. And he's been waiting on her return.

So the whole fucking place is named in waiting for her return, which hits back to where Owens is like, oh, everybody, you're kind of a big star here. Everybody looks for you and is looking at you. It's like this whole situation was for her return.

And he's giving this information, and so the layers to that storytelling is phenomenal. It's fucking phenomenal.

Andrea:

It is really well done.

There's some tricky stuff happening, though, with the project, Nina, and I can't remember if it's in this episode or if it's in the next one, but the way that Brenner seems to be able to tell Owens what El is experiencing in the moment when she's in the deprivation tank really bugs me.

Paul:

Oh, do we want to talk plot holes? I love this. I'm with you. Yes, please. Because I have some. I have another plot hole that really fucking bothers me.

Like, honestly, I don't know if it's.

Andrea:

A plot hole or just poorly explained what's going on. Like, I thought about this a little bit, and then I went on Reddit to see if anyone else had this question. And several.

Several people had this question on Reddit, and people come up with. With work, how this could work and what's actually happened. Brenner knows what is on camera, so he knows what Ella's experiencing.

But the way that it is framed is almost as if Brenner can see what's going on in El's mind.

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

And he absolutely cannot. So this. This actually bugged me a little bit.

Paul:

Yeah, it bugged me a little bit, too. And this. This is something that I've read about as. As we've been preparing for this. And another one that bugged me was Nancy's conversation with.

With Eddie's uncle about Victor Creel, where she references one of her colleagues that she used to work with at the other paper. And you start thinking to yourself, well, how those guys turned into blobs. And if there was another.

If there was another investigative reporter that worked at the time that all those motherfuckers turned into slime, he would have probably. This person would have probably been like, yo, where did my colleagues go? I'm not stopping until I figure it out. And I would have.

He would have looked deeper than, you know, they'll try to explain away. Oh, but the mall fire. Come on. Like, are you serious? Like, so that bugs me, too. I feel like there's some things that they just. They just.

They know it's not as important, and people aren't gonna do that type of digging. So they just let it go. Like the same thing as what Brenner's doing. It's like, they just like, okay, cool, whatever. You're gonna.

Andrea:

No, this. I think this is a little bit different because they write it intentionally, in my opinion.

They're intentionally writing it as if Brenner can see what is. So he can narrate to Owens what El is experiencing.

Paul:

Right, right.

Andrea:

I think it's an intentional decision. I just don't think it's one that works because it took me out of the moment. I'm like, what the hell is going.

You're on a show where you have people going into each other's minds.

Paul:

Yeah, yeah.

Andrea:

You. I think you have to be pretty clear about what's happening there. So not a big, big deal. It just did bug me a little bit.

Paul:

So how does he. How does he even communicate and know where she is in the vision to be able to communicate?

Andrea:

Because it's not like they're showing her one thing. They're showing her. She has multiple screens in front of her.

Paul:

Right, right.

Andrea:

So, anyway, it just bugged me. But. But we're already in episode five. We did not talk about what got Elle in this situation in the first place, which is this nonsense with Angela.

Paul:

Justifiable crime. Justifiable crime.

Andrea:

All right, all right. I'm of two minds about the Angela situation.

Paul:

Yeah, I know we've had numerous conversations about this, and I don't want to see where you've landed today after your rewatch. Go ahead, continue.

Andrea:

I still think it was horrible. She clocked her with a roller skate. And I, I. While I think that Angela is horrible, and I would.

I. I enjoy seeing horrible things happen to horrible people. The. The fight, the level of violence, even I gassed when she clocked her with the roller skate. However, I.

On my multiple watches, I do feel more that I under. I understand what was going on with Elle in that moment.

Paul:

I. I mean, I'm. I'm good with.

Andrea:

Look, I understand what happened, but I want to just say that when we believe that Elle may have murdered all of the other kids. Right. Because at this point, we don't know that Elle isn't the one who didn't kill all those other kids.

Paul:

Right.

Andrea:

We have seen L covered in blood at the lab with all these other kids.

Paul:

What have you done? Right.

Andrea:

What have you done?

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

And then like an episode later when she doesn't have any powers, she uses violence against somebody who is bullying her. It does make you wonder. Is. Was Elle capable of something that maybe in an uncontrolled flash of. Of. Of anger, killed all those other kids?

Paul:

All right, I'm going to cover all that you just said. I hear you, but I'm going to cover all you just said with two characters. Comments. Very rare. It's going to be very rare.

This, like, lover of cannabis, Ingestor of fucking pineapple pizza. Yuck. There's very rare times that I will be like, argyle has words of wisdom. But I'm going to give Argyle his words of wisdom.

I know it's upsetting and shit is what he says, but that future prom queen's going to be all right. She going to be all right.

Andrea:

It's true. It's true. She'll be fine. But it was still horrible. Elle didn't know she would be fine.

Paul:

And then Owens says it the best. She's like, am I in trouble? And she's like, what, for the thing with the roller skate? No, no, we'll make that go away. Well, that's fine. You're good.

You're good.

Andrea:

You're good.

Paul:

Money like.

Andrea:

No, I was like, I have cleaned up far worse than that. I'm a. Get her parents in touch of a good plastic surgeon.

Paul:

She'd be. I agree. You know. You know, she's going to learn. Don't.

Don't play somebody in front of everybody else, and don't talk about somebody's dead parent, and don't be trying to look cool in front of somebody's man.

Andrea:

But let's talk about Will and how Will is noticeably unable to stand up to anyone and defend his sister.

Paul:

Unable or unwilling?

Andrea:

I think he's unable. I'm gonna give Will the benefit of the doubt that, like, he's dealing with his own trauma from being bullied back in Hawkins.

But the way he just lets her hang out and dry. And it really bugs me. It bugs me for a couple reasons. One is when it's time to buck up to Agent Stinson, he don't got. All of a sudden, he's.

He's talking with his whole chest.

Paul:

Whole chest, whole chest, whole chest.

Andrea:

A whole lot of bass in his voice. What do you mean? We can't go back to Hawkins, right? What do you mean? All our friends are there. Whole chest.

So you don't have any problem speaking up to authority. You don't have any problem telling literal armed people in your house how you feel, but you couldn't.

You couldn't stand by your sister's side when she needed you the most.

Paul:

There's another reading of this, though. Wait, wait.

Andrea:

Let me. Let me finish. Let me finish.

Paul:

Okay, okay.

Andrea:

Let me finish. My second problem with it is that we get that beautiful scene with him and Jonathan later, which is Jonathan essentially telling Will, I don't.

I see you and I care about you, and whatever it is you got to tell me, I'M I'm still your brother. I will always be your brother. Jonathan would never let anybody bully Will. The way that Will just stands by and lets Elle get bullied.

And in fact, Jonathan and Argyle are. Are both like ready to. Ready to up when something went wrong with the kids.

So he's had this example of all these people being willing to fight with him, including Elle, who has saved his life multiple times at this point. Bothers me to my core. It is there for a reason. I believe that this is part of.

Of Will's story that they're setting up, that Will is going to have to step into that role of being the type of person who does something brave, who. Who does something that feels uncomfortable in this. In a moment like this, who can stand up for Elle and his other friends when necessary.

I. I understand some people think it's just jealousy about Mike. I think it goes. It's. I think it's more than that.

So I think he's written this way so we will notice a change in season five when he can step into a heroic moment. But it. I still find it so hard to watch him be in the same classroom as they're making fun of his sister about her dead dad.

Paul:

I totally agree. Especially knowing how his mom feels about her dead dad as well. I totally agree. Based on him knowing what Hopper did to save them.

I also think that there's another piece. I agree with everything you just said.

And I'm going to add one other piece that we have talked a lot and you know my running theory that the Upside down and all of this is somehow connected to Will's consciousness.

If in fact that is the case, besides just being jealous about Mike or whatever it is, Elle represents the person who opened the gate who was able to do all those things and now she has no powers. And maybe if he. And notice what you said. He bucked up when it was time to go back to Hawkins, but he didn't buck up.

So why do you want to get back to Hawkins, the place that you have been so tortured that you have had all these terrible things happen. Maybe the Mind Flayer is not totally out of this dude.

Maybe there's something that I always saw that scene as there's something else going on with Will that has to do with the relationship that the Upside down has to 11 and Vecna has to 11 and the mind flayer has to 11 that he was willing to let her be humiliated in that way. And also there is some motivation based on the jealousy. Sure. Of like with Mike.

But it has more to do with that piece because why do you want to get back to Hawkins so bad? Of all the people, you should be the last person wanting to go back to Hawkins. Of everybody.

Andrea:

That's really fair. That's fair. I'm not going to argue with that. I think maybe if we had recorded this a month ago, I would maybe be pushing back more.

But I actually agree with you that, like, now that it's essentially been confirmed for us in the trailer that Will is still part of the. The plan. Right? I mean, it's not, that's not explicitly confirmed, but I think we can draw our own.

Paul:

You're gonna help me one last time. It's pretty damn explicit. Right?

Andrea:

But I think that's, I think that's a true, really fair interpretation that some part of Will was, Would never warm to L because L is a problem for this hive mind that he is connected to but no longer hurt by. And so I. Abs, I think you're, you're, you're, you're possibly right. I can't argue with you.

Paul:

We have. I mean, listen, we're gonna find out. It's coming, it's barreling. So let's, let's talk about some funny moments. We had a lot of fun.

Andrea:

We gotta have some levity.

Paul:

We gotta have some levity.

Andrea:

Let's talk about some of this heavy.

Paul:

This stuff is heavy. So peanut butter is damn. Banned in the motherland. Is absolutely, absolutely amazing. I buy this for $2. I sell it back for 10, 15.

Oh, your mother, the way that it.

Andrea:

Sent me, like, I can't explain it. It's his delivery about it and it's like of all the things that he could choose to smuggle, peanut butter is like the one thing.

Paul:

Yeah, no, it's fucking great. It's fucking great. I also separately, like, love Erica Sinclair's walk in the Undercover.

Like she's AKA the Undercover nerd, AKA the ice Cream Bandit, AKA you can't spell America without Erica walking in with the flag and laying Eddie Munson low. Are we gonna do this? Are we gonna chit chat like it's your mama's book club?

Andrea:

It's so good. My game game sees game. Because he's like, all right, let's go definitely do this.

Oh my God, it's Ted Wheeler has some of the best moments in this run of episodes too. When.

Paul:

I know you're going says.

Andrea:

That he's. He has a Hellfire Club thing. And he's like, why don't, why don't you just call it the high school dropout club.

I'm like, ted, it's literally a club of kids in high school. Like, what are you talking about?

Paul:

When do they become. When do they become reasonable again? What age? Oh, my God, this is great.

Andrea:

Later, what he says to Dustin, why don't you try sticking together at a different house?

Paul:

That's good. Why'd you try sticking together at a different house? Is. Is great. Dustin and Ted's relationship is hilarious.

From him telling him off that time to like, now he's eating up all his food. Eating him out of house at home. Oh, it's great. I love it.

Andrea:

Especially since Karen's like, make yourself at home. And like, I'm the one who pays the bills around here. These kids eating all of our food.

Paul:

Oh, my God.

Andrea:

Is not even here. Like, Mike is not.

Paul:

Mike is gone. Like, Nancy has taken on the kids and she's like, it's so good that you guys are sticking together. Like, Carrie, you don't see that this is.

This is weird. Like, it's just all of them are there with your older daughter. Like, it's weird. It's crazy.

Andrea:

Anyway, also, Erica's moment when Jason comes looking for Lucas at the house. I. I see he's taken a step down from Max.

Paul:

Oh, my gosh. Great.

Andrea:

Great. Because Jason has no idea how to interpret that. And I'm just like, it's so good. Erica.

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

Like, is it not even. Erica is not making any. Like, she's. It's not a joke about being gay.

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

It's just a. It's just like.

Paul:

But also like how she.

Andrea:

Max is better than you know.

Paul:

And even as she said as she's telling him off about like, yo. And tell him when you find him, I've been covering for him. And that's going to increase his DPY by 6%. That is daily percentage yield. Like, let me.

I know you're a dumb jock. I know you're out here.

Andrea:

Like, I have a question about this. Oh, we. So when we finish the funny moments, we do need to circle back to our boy Eddie for a moment because we didn't give him his due.

Paul:

Yeah, yeah. We're going to talk about. We're going to talk about Eddie. We'll talk about.

Andrea:

But I have a question about this. Where does Lucas get money? Like, he. She's charging him $10 a day. This. None of these kids have jobs.

Paul:

Yo. Do you think that this.

Andrea:

Yo.

Paul:

Erica is a flag waving. You can't spell America without Erica capitalist. She don't Care. She's going to put him in debt.

Whatever he don't have, he's going to owe in the negative. She's going to be like, look, I just.

Andrea:

would be a high allowance in:

Paul:

She said he gonna buy her the Nintendo with the Duck Hunt. Like, she was. She.

She threw in Duck Hunt because, you know what's funny is you could buy Nintendo and you could just get Mario Brothers, but if you wanted the Duck Hunt, you had to buy the separate gun. It didn't come together right away. So she was out here in 86, like, you're you going to give me the Nintendo with the Duck Hunt?

Like, both give me that. All she would have had to do is talk about the little action pad. Action Pad. Oh, my God. Do you remember the Action Pad? Action Pad was amazing.

Andrea:

The action pad was what it was in Nintendo.

Paul:

There was, like, this game where you could, like, run and jump over, like, hurdles, and it was like, you connected this.

Andrea:

Oh, no, no, no, no. I was. When I first got my Nintendo, I was Duck Hunt all day, every day. Me and them ducks was worn on a regular basis.

Every day after school, I would take out that little plastic gun. It would be on and popping with those ducks for a couple hours before I did my homework.

Paul:

It was Duck Hunt. It was Mario Brothers. It was the, The. The Mike Tyson Sponge out game. That was, that was. Those are, Those are my.

Andrea:

I didn't have that. I, I had Mario, but I, I, it was. I didn't even care about Mario. I was just like, these ducks gotta die.

Paul:

Yeah, no, it's great. It's great. Oh, I love. I love the duck. I love Duck Hunt. And then, of course, another funny moment set up nicely Previous season.

Tammy Thompson out here sounding like a Muppet in real time.

Andrea:

The delight with which Robin and Steve both react to the announcement that Tammy, all the way from Nashville, is gonna be singing the National Anthem is so funny because they're both so giddy excited about it. And then as soon as she starts singing, it's genuinely bad.

Paul:

Genuinely bad.

Andrea:

Genuinely terrible.

Paul:

Really, really bad.

Andrea:

I was like, what is she doing in Nashville? Not getting voice lessons.

Paul:

And then, of course, two. Two final words. I love Robin's crash out. And Dustin scaring the shit out of Holly. Your face. I was like, dustin is me. It's me. I'm the problem. It's me.

Andrea:

I'm just gonna say, this is real time. I have never related to Holly Wheeler more in my life. Holly was too young, just as I was.

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

Exposed to Nightmare on Elm Street.

Paul:

The beauty.

Andrea:

Terrifying.

Paul:

The beauty in it was. I felt, I felt, I felt like, damn. I remember doing. But at least he didn't show her the movie. I actually. We showed you the movie, so.

Andrea:

You sure did.

Paul:

Yeah. That's part. But the, but the crazy part is the meta portion of how they're talking about Freddy Krueger.

And you know, Victor Creel is played by the actor that played Freddy Krueger. So it's like actually really freaking dope. Like when I was like, oh, shit.

Like, there's like this meta component that they always throw in of like, here is Freddy Krueger. Sure. We're talking about, like, you know, maybe it's. Maybe Vecna's like, Freddy Krueger. We're referencing Freddy Krueger.

We're talking about it to Holly Scare the shadow. And also, by the way, the guy who plays Freddy Krueger is also playing another character. Pretty fascinating stuff the Duffers do here.

I love that shit.

Andrea:

Yeah. And I believe season five, they're going to have Frank Darabont as a director.

Paul:

Oh, wow.

Andrea:

Which is like. I was like, that's a big get. Wow, that's a big get. I was genuinely like, let me fact check this. I think he is directing one of the.

More like the, like episode five or six, four, which. Which we know from Stranger Things history tend to be sort of like, sort of big.

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

Real big. Now, I think this upcoming season will have a different cadence to it than previous seasons because it has to.

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

I think that it has to start like this one right from the beginning. There's not going to be any build up, so we'll see. But I was like, oh, wow. Okay. That's a big get for them.

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

But yes, the, the Robin crash out is so good because one, I'm Nancy in that moment. I'm freaking out. But it works.

Paul:

Yeah, no, it works.

Andrea:

And like, Rob, this is one of the things we talked about this, I think, in our last episode in, in for season three. I, I, this, this matchup is phenomenal. They both have. They're so different.

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

But they bring something different in. Different perspectives and different approaches. That is absolutely necessary. Sometimes Nancy needs somebody to tell her to calm the f down.

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

Jonathan's not going to do that.

Paul:

Nope. Nor is.

Andrea:

I mean, actually, Jonathan has tried.

Paul:

He has tried, but he.

Andrea:

It's more fraught for him. I think Robin can just be like, here, I'll do It in a different way. And my way works too, because Nancy can be a little bit of a control freak.

So it's the crash out is so funny. I love it. I love Robin.

Paul:

So the part that Me too. I love the two of them together.

I mean, I was walking through the house and I was like, do I think that that pairing I love close to even in the same neighborhood as Dustin and Steve. Do I think that's Dustin and Steven? I was like, Dustin and Steve's special. But I do like this pairing a lot.

Like, I really do love the two of them, the way that they investigate. And I thought that what was fascinating was how she could real time realize this guy is all about the ego and pretension and accomplishment.

And if I just say that I wanted to be you and I wanted to be this. It was like the whole buildup of her story to culminate into. I didn't want to be this other thing. I wanted to be you.

You could see and be like, oh, wow. Oh wow. You know what I mean? So it was. She has very good self awareness too. She's very aware, which is, I mean, awareness of her surroundings as well.

It's great. I love it.

Andrea:

Yeah. She, she's very emotionally intelligent.

Paul:

Yeah, agreed. So, I mean, I think some of the things that, that we, we still wanted to talk to. I think we want to, we want to talk a little bit about Eddie.

I think like let's, let's, let's do that. And then, and then I really do think we should spend some time on. I do think that we should spend some time on Hopper and his self.

His view of himself and, and, and what he confides in Jack and Hagar about. I'm sorry I could help it.

Andrea:

I forgot. He's jacking. That was so true. Has no name. Do we ever get Enzo's actual name?

Paul:

He has no name.

Andrea:

All right, so let's, let's talk about Eddie.

We talked about his, his intro, but we talked extensively offline about why Eddie works for us and why Eddie is probably their most well written new character. He's only with us for night the nine episodes. I don't even think he's in all nine episodes. But he's only with us for those nine episodes.

But the fans are still talking about Eddie's death three years later. Yeah, Eddie's introduction with his, his speech about the mocking, the satanic panic. We're the freaks because we like to play a fantasy game.

The Force Conformity, which is just so Gen X coded. The whole speech was so Gen X.

Paul:

That's great.

Andrea:

I was.

Paul:

It's amazing.

Andrea:

Me being an elder Millennial literally rolled my eyes because I was like, oh, here, here they go.

Paul:

Conformity, Come on.

Andrea:

Millennial had a Gen X cousin or sibling who gave them this speech at some point in their life.

Paul:

100.

Andrea:

We've all heard this speech.

Paul:

Yes.

Andrea:

He's also not scared of Jason and the jocks. He directly challenges them. But Eddie is not brave. And that's like a big part of his storyline that he's not the brave guy. He says, I'm not the hero.

I mean, he turns out to be a hero, but he says I'm not, you know, I know I'm not the hero. Right. His conversation with Chrissy is almost in a three minute, five minute scene. The whole point of this damn show.

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

You've got two people. Let's Chris. Chrissy he calls the queen of the high school. Right.

Well, in a previous scene, Fred tells Nancy that she's the most like, desired girl in all of Hawkins. Right. Chrissy is, is our Nancy. Eddie is our freaks. Right. But they're both struggling. They're both.

They come together with compassion, a common memory. They find common ground. He disarms Chrissy, who is obviously extremely scared about what she's doing. She's not a drug user.

She just really is scared about what she's experiencing. And instead of being snarky or menacing her the way he did with Jason. Right. We know Eddie doesn't have a lot of response, respect for the jocks.

He sees Chrissy as a human. And that's like, that's this whole show. You've got Nancy, the. A popular girl.

I mean, I don't think Nancy was super popular before she started dating Steve, but like she had the potential. Right? You got Steve, the most popular kid. You. And you've got Dustin. All in it together. Right.

You've got like the, the kid who got bullied about his teeth and, and has a disability. All in. All in this together, they're all one big found family. And I love that.

The Eddie Chrissy moment and Eddie's whole character actually is just a reminder of like, that's actually if we just take. Take away the pretenses outside layers of our identity and we connect on a human level. We actually have more in common than we do. That separates us.

High school is hell for a reason. It's because people put, put themselves and others into these boxes. And Eddie, even though he's, you know, a grown man.

Paul:

Yeah. They call him out already. Like, did you say that last year and the year before that? But this year is going to be my year.

Andrea:

Eddie's a grown man, but, like, he recognizes outside of that microcosm of the cafeteria, when it's just the two of them, that. That Chrissy is just a person. A person who's struggling with something, and he wants to help her. Like, desperately wants to help her.

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

And so having her die in front of him the way that she does is already horrible. But then to have him be blamed for that death, it just. I just think that the way that they. They bought these two. These two characters.

Chrissy, it's only with us, this one episode. But it. It's. It's to me, was so.

I don't want to use the word powerful, because I feel like we use that too much, but, like, it just resonated with, like. Yeah. As a person who was friends with both the theater kids and the popular kids. I was like a floater in high school. Right.

I was never really popular myself, but I could sometimes be popular adjacent, depending on, like, my friend group. I don't see them that way. When I talk about high school, it's like my friend.

And I won't use anyone's name because some of them probably listen to this podcast.

But, like, this person that other people thought of as being kind of the Regina George of our high school was a full person to me, who had her own struggles and who I never really heard say anything mean about anybody, who was just a person who was blessed by genetics and was really smart and was really socially was. What's the word I'm looking for? She was so talented socially.

People liked her, and a lot of people had a different experience of her where they felt like they weren't seen. But she was just like.

When it was just the two of us, she was just like my nerdy friends who were, like, actually into D and D. She was just like my theater friends who would sing in the cafeteria. Like, they were all just people. And that's what I really liked about this moment.

Like, the way that Lucas and Elle's stories in high school connected with you. This moment between Eddie and Chrissy connect with me.

Because it's like, yeah, like, once you get out of the cafeteria and all the drama, this is actually what high school could be like. If we were just like, hey, remember when we were in elementary school and we were all getting along and before.

Paul:

We came to high school and before we came to high school, which high school to me in the way that they're presenting it and the way that I experienced it. And, you know, I hope to expand this in some other ways. It's sort of like the Sorting Hat in Harry Potter, right? It's sort of like. And, you know, we.

You know, it's kind of like everybody gets put in. And I think that's what Eddie speaking to in that cafeteria monologue. Everybody gets put into their little categories.

But, yeah, I thought he also was very complimentary and kind to Chrissy. Like, when he falls backwards, he uses, like, kind of like a physical language, which, as a cheerleader, she'll be able to, like, resonate with.

Oh, wow, look, what the hell is he doing? And then he compliments her even on. He said, you know, you were cheerleading and you were doing the thing that you do, which is actually pretty cool.

He, like, calls out it as being a pretty cool thing that she does.

And I thought that that was like, you know, it's like this stark contrast even to, like, what you would have perceived of him in the cafeteria monologue. Like, would this person even say that or hang with this person or be like that? It's fascinating. And when you first meet him, When I first.

When I first saw Eddie, you and I talked about this. We're like, like, oh, okay, they found a Billy replacement. And then like, yeah, I.

Andrea:

Because I realized why today when I rewatched that episode, why we felt that way. It's because of the way that Dustin and Mike approach him. They're like, oh, he's on one today. Which makes you think he's gonna bully them.

Yeah, he does a little bit.

Paul:

A little bit.

Andrea:

In a loving way.

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

Like a big brother bullies them. Right.

Paul:

He said, I believe the children are the future.

Andrea:

Teach more. He's no more mean to them than Steve is to Dustin.

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

No, it's out of love, right? It's. It's like a shared. Well, no, I was going to say kind of like how Erica talks to everybody, but no, Erica's being mean. He's actually being mean.

Paul:

And Steve is actually. Steve is actually jealous. Steve is actually jealous of this relationship. Steve is like, what's going on? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uhhuh. Yeah.

Andrea:

I love later in the season when Eddie tells Steve, yo. The way that. That Dustin looks at you. I could never. I could never have that.

Paul:

It's.

Andrea:

It's great. So Eddie Munson gone too soon.

Paul:

Very much so.

Andrea:

Incredible character. And we will have a piece on our sub stack about Eddie. It might be up already by the time this episode is published.

Paul:

That leads Us to. Another thing I think we really want to talk about is God. Hopper's monologue. I am the curse that he comes to this conclusion.

I used to think I was cursed ever since I was 18. Got some letter of induction in the mail. Uncle Sam wants me to fight in some war in the jungle. I was happy enough to go.

Proved to my old man I wasn't a piece of shit like he thought I was. I get over there, and I must have tested well, because they put me in the chemical core.

There I am, just a kid, 19 years old, mixing up drums of Agent Orange with kitchen gloves. Breathed it in. They told us it was harmless, just herbicide to kill plants. This is powerful stuff, man.

And I got back home, and the guys I work with, the ones who made it back, started having families. And then things started going wrong. Kids born stillborn, dead in the womb. Spines twisted. The horror followed us home.

My wife, Diane, she wanted a baby. We had one. Sarah. She was perfect. And then she died. I knew the risk, but I hid them. And then Diane left. She didn't blame me, not with words.

But she left. After that, I buried myself. In drugs, in work, in anything that kept me from feeling. This is where we met Hopper. In that numbed out state.

Then people started coming into my life. This girl, Elle, and Joyce. And I told myself they needed me, but it wasn't true. I needed them. You were right when you said last night.

I knew the risk. I broke out. Anyway, the minute I sent for Joyce, I sentenced her to death. Everyone I love, I hurt. I was wrong this whole time. I wasn't cursed.

I am the curse. Wow.

Andrea:

I cried so hard.

Paul:

Ugh. It's tough.

Andrea:

This speech is. First of all, the fans for years wanted to understand Sarah's story better. And I think. I don't think they give us all of it, but they give us more.

Here. The guilt that Hopper has is walking around with. If. If Hopper was in. In Hawkins, Vecna would definitely be on that ass. Like he would. Vecna would def.

This is it. It explains so much about Hopper, right? It explains why it takes Hopper, like, essentially three seasons to work up the.

The guts to even just ask Joyce out. It explains why he's so protective of Elle in season one. It explains why he don't really like the Mike L pair up right away. Like.

Paul:

Explains how he's able to, like, all the things he's able. Like, you say, oh, he's just like a normal cop. It explains why he's able to understand all these things. Around the Russian attack and blase blood.

All these military grade things that we were like, oh, wait, he actually has military experience in a way that we didn't really understand.

Andrea:

You know, it's really, really tough. And who could blame Hopper for not telling Diane about the other children, you know, that his. His buddies were experiencing?

Because he probably thought he would get lucky. They would maybe would get lucky. But it's. It's genuinely terrible to believe that something you did when you were 19 years old.

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

Is what essentially destroyed your life and destroyed the life of two other people. Yeah, it. It is. I love this speech.

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

But it is really hard. And this was sort of one of those moments when I was like, oh, okay. The writing has really leveled up here.

It's so thematic that everybody is experiencing these moments of, like, here's a thing in my past that I'm responsible for. Right. So Elle already had one of those moments. She had one of those moments in season one when she reveals that she touched the Demogorgon. Right.

But now she's experiencing another, which is that she created Vecna. Like, this is from the. You know, this doesn't happen yet. But when she takes the chip out of him, all of that.

That, like, she created the circumstances which bought this chaos into the world. We have Max dealing with the fallout of Billy's death and knowing that she was part of the group of people that fought Billy.

We have Hopper dealing with the loss of Sarah, but also with the fact that he sent. He had Enzo send Joyce that doll in the first place, putting her life at risk, putting the life of Elle at risk.

Paul:

And also, here's lying again. Here's like.

Here's like, another lie through omission, like, where he lied to his wife about, like, by omitting, like, he had knowledge of, like, he says, I had knowledge that this was happening, but I didn't share it. Right. So I had some. So again, we're seeing people who have withheld information that was.

That ultimately had not only effects for their own life, but the lives of others.

Andrea:

Yeah. And even when we think about what's going on with Jonathan and Nancy, Jonathan didn't apply to Emerson.

Paul:

Right.

Andrea:

And he doesn't want to just say that. And so, so much of this season is about, like, making choices that then haunt us. Except for, in my opinion, Max didn't have much of a choice, but.

And Elle definitely didn't have a choice that. That. That dude had to get blasted into another dimension.

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

But it is. It is very thematic. Like, this speech Is the whole Russian plot feels outside of the show. It feels like you're watching another show.

, like, Robert redford in the:

Some truth that they help hold deep inside of them that is coming to. Coming up, that is coming to the surface. So I just think that I was like, chef's kiss.

Paul:

Yeah.

And I think another thing is, for me especially, it's another moment where the Duffers take something historical that was happening very prevalently in the 80s, and they shine a light on it in this moment.

For those who don't know, like, you know, this was a thing that a lot of people dealt with based on, like, chemical reactions and things that were happening based on being over in Vietnam and being close to, around or inhaling or working with Agent Orange. And it. I'll say from.

I don't know if you remember, I won't say the person's name, but in our childhood, there was a kid that I went to school with whose dad was a Vietnam veteran who passed away, and. And he also got sick based on. And I could never quite understand, well, why would he get sick and die as a kid from. From this thing that was like.

Like, I just thought, oh, well, it's dust. Like, what? You know, as a kid, you don't feel freaking understand. But I knew. I heard these stories, like, as a young person in the 80s, 86, 84, 85.

Like, this was not an uncommon story to hear people who had side effects and were never quite the same after going to Vietnam and not because of trauma, but because of actual chemical warfare, you know, So I thought it was very.

I thought it was very well done to subtly bring in something that could have really been affecting families and where people who are watching the show may even have a deeper connective tissue to that actual issue. So well done. So what themes do we want to talk about? What do you want to. What are you thinking? You want to. Like. I mean, we're.

We can close out on themes and kind of what we learned.

Andrea:

Talk about. Actually, we've talked about most of what we learned. Right. We already talk about.

We've already talked about Vecna's mind powers really being vulnerable. The. I did want to just raise this one thing, because in my rewatch, I was like, oh, Paul's been talking about time stuff since the beginning.

Paul:

In.

Andrea:

In Elle's letter to Mike, she has this quote. Joy says time is funny. Like, that emotions can make it speed up or slow down.

Paul:

I know. I heard.

Andrea:

And the. Everything. This whole world is driven by emotion. So I was like, oh, that's. That's another. I'm gonna do some tinfoil hat for Paul here. But.

Paul:

Yeah, yeah, no, I'm with you.

Andrea:

Or something might be going on with time.

Paul:

Yeah. Especially with the clock.

Andrea:

So I definitely. I. I heard that right away. And I was like, oh, okay.

Paul:

While we're on Elle's letters, though, can we just. Can we just. Just give a shout out and we'll even pour one out for Mike's ego and also give. Give Elle a shout out to family grade. Our family. We.

You guys who don't know our family is really good at shade and family grade, like, grade A shade. When she goes. When she does this whole, like, I'm fine. I'm leaving from Elle, like, just to call out, no more love. L. And Oh.

I was like, yo, look at Ellen.

Andrea:

Max taught our girl well. I was like, that's. That's right, sis.

Paul:

Yes.

Andrea:

From L. From.

Paul:

How about that one? How'd I feel?

Andrea:

She gonna diss track that letter super hard.

Paul:

He was there. Will's like, yo, bruh, it's not gonna change just by staring at it. He is staring hard, hoping it would change from. From. To love. Nah, bro.

Listen, anyway, it was funny. I thought I. I laughed audibly, like, when I read that letter, like. Anyway.

Andrea:

So the only thing in the themes that I think would maybe worth talking about that we haven't already talked about, because we've talked about most of them, that. That we pulled out for this episode is the. The identity piece, which, again, I think is a theme that applies to both Will and Elle.

They both struggle with different elements of their identity, and. And Elle, especially in these episodes, is like a new. She's experienced a kind of death, which. I have a theory that this is how Elle dies. Right?

Not really dies, but in the. In season five, I have a theory that Elle will experience a type of death, which is that she will have no powers going forward. I'm just.

Thematically, I think that that would be actually good for her, but they may not want to do that to her a second time. We'll see. But Elle's whole arc and struggle for identity is something that we watch her go through multiple times. She's. It's.

She's figuring out how to be part of a friend group, how to be. How to be a. A girl, how to find her girlhood, right? Max, does that work with her? And now she's figuring out who she is without superpowers.

She has to kind of look in the mirror for the first time and.

And think about, like, who she is beyond the hero behind, beyond the person who can be used as a weapon, who can save people, whose value in her mind, I think is tied to those powers. Because that's how she was raised. She had no value to Brenner as far as she knows.

I do think Brenner cared about Elle, but I think Brenner cares about himself and his pursuit of what he's looking for, which we'll talk about more in another episode, more than any person.

And so I think that El is, for the first time in her life really trying to figure out, like, what it means to have value without those powers, without the ability to do for others. What does she bring to the table when she's not able to save people?

And so I think that it's a theme that also, I think applies a little bit to Will, but in a different way.

I think that Will, like living in, leaning into his identity, being, getting the freedom that Robin has of being able to talk to Steve about having a crush on someone.

ack. Especially, I mean, it's:

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

This was not a time where it was safe to be gay.

Paul:

No.

Andrea:

And frankly, we still don't live in a time where everyone is safe to be gay wherever they are. Queerness is still othered in this country.

Paul:

And we were really dealing with AIDS epidemic. Right. As well. Yeah.

Andrea:

Early days of the AIDS epidemic was happening as well. And there was a lot of stigma around that too.

Paul:

A lot of stigma.

Andrea:

However, I do think Will would find comfort in being able to be who he is to the people he cares about. Show him. Show them his real self. And I. I wonder if that will help him break down some of these other barriers. We.

We did learn in these episodes that Brenner believes that El has a traumatic block that is preventing her from using her powers. What if Will has one too?

Paul:

I agree. I. I could see that being something that. That Will's struggling with.

And I'm so happy that you brought up this because it was something that I was thinking about as I was watching. And, you know, I'll revisit this multiple times while we talk about it.

But again, I'm going to mention the hero's journey, and I'm going to mention the innermost cave in the hero's journey. And there's a. There's a moment in this kind of storytelling arc of the hero's journey where somebody, the hero is said to enter the innermost cage.

And the innermost cage is a dangerous central location in the spatial world where the hero faces their ultimate ordeal. We could, in El's case, look at Project Nina, right? She's facing the ultimate thing that led to this whole thing taking place, Right? But what.

It struck me because when her and Owens are sitting in the diner, he says something that I sat up and I said to myself, holy shit, is Owen's Yoda in this scenario? And I know that sounds crazy, but there's a scene in Star wars where.

Where Skywalker, with Luke Skywalker and Empire Strikes Back, is going to the Dagobah system to. Because Obi Wan Kenobi, post death, says to him that he should go to. I know. I'm walking you through it. I'm walking through it.

Andrea:

I'm like, I only understand some of these words. Yeah, I know what Obi Wan Kenobi is.

Paul:

Yeah. So he says to him that he needs to go to the Dagobah system and he needs to go seek out, you know, guidance.

And he goes and he seeks out Yoda, and Yoda and him start training.

And as he's training, there's a battle that's happening, obviously with Darth Vader and the Emperor, and there's like, things that are happening to his friends. And Yoda turns to him and says that you can't really help your friends if you go now, like, something bad will happen.

But if you stay and keep training, you'll be able to do more. And Owens almost says the exact same things. If you go to your friends now, worse things will happen.

But you have to decide now that you're going to come with me. And this is the same pitch that Yoda says to. To Luke Skywalker and in that instance in Empire Strikes Back.

The parallels here is that Luke goes into a cave where he faces Darth Vader in the cave, which is the innermost cave. And in that moment, he strikes Darth Vader down. And he realizes it's that he sees his own face behind the mask.

It's a precursor to Luke finding out if you haven't seen Star Wars. Pause fast forward. I'm about to spoil it. It's a Precursor to Luke finding out that Darth Vader is actually his father. He doesn't understand it.

Yoda understands it.

Andrea:

Are there people who don't know that?

Paul:

I don't know, but we're just going to say I just didn't. I don't want to spoil it in case. But exactly. So why is that important?

One, the Duffers have outwardly said now in interviews how much they've taken the. Some of what they're going to do with Vecna Season 5 From what they have experienced in the lore of Star wars with Darth Vader.

This interviews, they've talked about it.

The other piece about it that I think is really relevant besides just the normal arc of the hero's journey in its innermost case is that we're seeing. We're seeing things that kind of indicate. And we don't know where this goes. We're seeing this kind of indicate that El may be the hero with that.

With what Owen says in the diner he's presenting, she thinks she's the monster still. He's like, I'm betting that you're one of the good ones. Right.

But we're also seeing that for me anyway, what I'm looking at it is that in order for her to really be the hero that she needs to be, she's going to have to face the pain that brought her here. The thing that brought her to this point of needing to even be a hero, to even save people's lives. The origin story of that.

And I think that that's very similar to what we see play out in other fantasy stories. And I saw a deep connection to Star wars lore.

Nightmare of Elm street, obviously in this whole thing they have found ways to combine these stories that they love, these genre films and call back to these things in ways that are just like remarkable and not feeling heavy handed. Like if you're just watching this and you don't know anything about what I just said, you still get everything you need.

But it is the same hero's journey that Luke was on in this exact moment that El is on when she goes to Project Nina is where he goes before he goes and meets.

And in fact when he leaves and goes, he goes and he meets up with Darth Vader, turns himself in and is standing eventually like, well, obviously they fight each other first.

And eventually he's dealing with this kind of conflict of this fight where you see El is fighting with Brenner, this person who is her papa, right where Luke is fighting his father. So I think there's a lot of like them seeing storytelling that they love and really ingesting it into this story. And it just works to me.

It works for this particular run.

Andrea:

It does.

I made a face when you said it's not heavy handed because I do think that the allusions to that lady story that we don't like to talk about are there and are quite heavy handed.

Paul:

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah. And all right, we'll say one time we're not going to say her name, but we're talking about, I mean, we're.

Andrea:

Gonna, when we talk about the, the trailer and the play, I think we're gonna have to talk about, talk about the world of Harry Potter a little bit.

Paul:

Yeah.

Andrea:

But like, I actually think some, some of the Harry Potter stuff is, is kind of heavy handed.

Paul:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrea:

And, and I, I don't know where to, how to feel about it at this stage, but like, if it was already B, I.

And also Matt and Ross Duffer are Elder millennials, so it's part of, it's part, probably part of their story of people, of people who like grew up with those books and experience those movies. But yeah, I, I hear you. Of the Star wars stuff, obviously I can't make that connection.

But what I like whenever you talk about the hero's journey, what I like about it is that you're talking about a story that is special to you, but I can see the elements of that in other stories that are special to me. And of course you and I can both see the elements of that in stories we've covered together.

Like his dark materials, which is one that we, we keep bringing up. But I think, because there's a lot of similarities between Lyra, who was one of the chosen ones, and El. And I think that that, that's what makes it.

The reason that people use that, that sort of model to write hero stories is because it works, it resonates. People, People can identify with a hero who is chosen, goes on a journey, struggles. No one likes a hero who's just a hero.

Like if Elle just was like, walks in a room and was like, gate closed.

Paul:

Yeah, open. Where's the conflict? Right? Yeah.

Andrea:

Where's the conflict? It wouldn't be a good one, we would probably think she's just a villain. But two, it wouldn't be a good story.

It's not how you get to, you get to know and love a hero. So I, I'm also of the belief that this is also Will's hero journey. I just don't think we've seen the. I think we've seen the struggle.

I don't think we've seen the part where Will stands up and gets to play that role.

And I always think of a part of the Captain Marvel movie that was made fun of by many people, but a lot of women resonated with it when she is thinking about all the times that she got knocked down and how every single time she stood back up. I think what we've been watching is all of Will take a bunch of Ls, and at some point he will stand up.

And I just want to see what it is that makes him. What's the motivation for doing that? Because he's his. His love for Elle doesn't seem to be something that motivates him to stand up in the moment.

I do think he would stand up for Mike, but I wonder if there are other people there, would he take a leadership role in standing up for Mike? So Will. Will finally stand up for Hawkins, for his mom, for all of his friends. Like, we'll see.

Paul:

I think it's coming because I think one of the things that Victor Krill says about Henry Krill, that Joyce says about, like, Will is, you know, my son Henry, he was a sensitive child, and we hear that, and you've mentioned that before on the podcast. And I think that it's.

It's an important piece because I think, you know, sensitivity, empathy, being, you know, an empath, I think at some point he's going to come face to face with the same choice that Victor came face to face that Henry came face to face with.

And we're going to hope that Will, based on all of the things that we've seen this group of found family put into him, is going to choose them over, you know, going with the Mind Flayer and Vector. Right.

Andrea:

And I think that's a. That's easy for us to say. Oh, yeah. Well, it's got so much more going for him than Henry.

But Will, what Max has shown us is Will has to believe that he has to want to fight for it.

Paul:

Right. Was.

Andrea:

Reckon I could have had Max, but Max was like, actually, no.

Paul:

Right.

Andrea:

I'm not ready to go yet, so. So. But. But she had the help of her friends. Right. So I. I think we will definitely see that in season five. I mean, I hope.

Paul:

I hope so too. I really do.

And we're gonna cover a little bit about season five in another episode based on the trailer, kind of some of our predictions and things like that.

So, you know, if you're with us here, you know, we're so grateful that you got, you're watching and listening and doing your rewatch and joining us for your rewatch. We're loving covering Stranger Things. Thanks for, for checking us out. Please go hit up our sub stack.

Go to kinfolklore.com you've been doing some great work on there, cuz I love all the pieces you've been writing. Yeah, it's great. It's good stuff. And, and yeah, definitely interact with us.

Hit us up on kinfolklore gmail.com kenfolklore pod on Instagram, on Threads now and also on on Twitter X.

Andrea:

No, no, no, no.

Paul:

Twitter still the bird app. Yeah. And yeah, we are loving doing this. We love to interact with you. We love having the conversations we've been having.

So until next time, we'll see you soon.

Andrea:

Bye everyone. Sam.

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Kinfolklore

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Paul Rivers-Bailey