Episode 3
Kinfolklore: Stranger Things Sn.2 (Chapters 1-5)
Welcome back to Kinfolklore, where Andrea and Paul dive deep into the fantasy and sci-fi worlds we love. Few shows capture that blend of nostalgia, terror, and friendship quite like Stranger Things.
This episode, we’re rewinding all the way back to Hawkins, Indiana, Fall 1984. The Arcade is hot, Ghostbusters costumes are... cooler? In preparation for the final season dropping this November, Andrea and Paul are rewatching every episode from the very beginning, continuing their coverage here with Season 2, Chapters 1–5
Transcript
Welcome back to Kin Folklore.
Speaker A: We're diving into the fall of: Speaker A:Ghostbuster costumes are cooler.
Speaker B:Are they?
Speaker B:I mean.
Speaker B:I mean, I love them as a. I'm not gonna.
Speaker A:I thought they were dope.
Speaker B:Who are you gonna call?
Speaker A:Them.
Speaker A:I thought they were dope.
Speaker B:Who are you gonna call?
Speaker A:You know, little cringy to be the only ones wearing it.
Speaker A:And traumatic supernatur are just part of growing up.
Speaker A:I'm Andrea.
Speaker B:I'm Paul.
Speaker B:And these first five chapters of season two of Stranger Things.
Speaker B:Almost a year after the events of season one.
Speaker B:But Hawkins hasn't shaken off the Upside Down.
Speaker B:Still, like, hanging on.
Speaker B:It's like a bad ex.
Speaker B:Will's back, but not quite okay.
Speaker B:He's coughing out things we saw at the end of last season.
Speaker B:New kids are in town, and there's a shadow in the sky that no one's ready for.
Speaker A:Today's episode, we continue our journey with season two of Stranger Things, chapters one through five.
Speaker A:We explore the strange visions, disgusting creatures, and extremely questionable decisions.
Speaker B:Very, very questionable.
Speaker A:Mostly of Dustin.
Speaker A:Mostly of Dustin.
Speaker A:As we continue to explore the right side up and the upside down of Hawkins.
Speaker A:As a reminder, while we are discussing chapters one through five specific, we will be chatting about everything that's happened in chapter in seasons one through four.
Speaker A:So if you are listening to this or watching this, you might want to come back when you finish your entire binge.
Speaker B:Kin Folklore will have adult content.
Speaker B:If you're not in the market for, like, a different color plastic jack or lantern, you don't really like orange.
Speaker B:You're really looking for green.
Speaker B:Or maybe even the stock room shenanigans of one Bob Newby and Joyce Byers, then you've come to the wrong place.
Speaker B:But if you like the idea of pickup lines involving rolling your tongue through your missing teeth, then you've come to the right place.
Speaker B:Shout out to Dustin, man, he had a rough season.
Speaker A:He made.
Speaker A:He made bad choices.
Speaker B:Rough, rough season.
Speaker A:All right, so let's get into the summary.
Speaker A:Chapters one and two.
Speaker A:Mad Max and Trick or treat freak.
Speaker A:A year after Will's disappearance, Hawkins looks normal on the surface, but cracks are already showing.
Speaker A:Will is haunted by visions of the Upside down, though.
Speaker A:The new doctor at the lab, Dr. Owens, brushes it off as PTSD, which is kind of a big deal.
Speaker A:But he's like, it's fine.
Speaker A:It's just.
Speaker A:So what's a little ptsd?
Speaker B:Ptsd?
Speaker B:You went to a whole other dimension.
Speaker B:You know, just shake it off.
Speaker A:No big deal.
Speaker A:They'll be all right.
Speaker A:Hopper keeps 11 hidden away in a cabin, but she is so restless and desperate to reconnect with the boys.
Speaker A:Speaking of the boys, they're adding a girl into the mix when the group dynamic shift when a new student, Max, rolls into town with her stepbrother, Billy.
Speaker A:Still don't like Billy.
Speaker A:I don't care about his redemption arc.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:No, I don't.
Speaker A:There's no redemption for.
Speaker A:For Billy's foolishness.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Meanwhile, Nancy and Steve's relationship falters under the weight of Barb's death and all of the lies that they're forced to tell.
Speaker A:They can't even acknowledge that Barb is dead.
Speaker A:By Halloween, the fissures deepen.
Speaker A:Mike is still drowning in his grief for Elle.
Speaker A:Will's visions grow darker, culminating in the first glimpse of the enormous shadow monster.
Speaker A:And Dustin makes a really questionable choice when he keeps a strange creature named Dart.
Speaker B:So adorable.
Speaker B:It's adorable, but it's a.
Speaker A:Dart is not adorable.
Speaker A:Dart is not cute.
Speaker A:Dart is disgusting.
Speaker A:Just to look.
Speaker B:Oh, Billy reminds me of like the, the villains in Karate Kid.
Speaker B:Every time I see this season, I'm like, he's got.
Speaker B:He's like all the villains in Karate Kid.
Speaker A:He does kind of have that vibe.
Speaker B:And then in chapter three through five, Pollywog, Will the wise and Dig Dug, Dustin's new pet Dart becomes the center of trouble.
Speaker B:When Will recognizes it is a creature from the Upside down, the warnings come a little too late.
Speaker B:Will is overtaken by the shadow monster in the field.
Speaker B:That is a wild scene.
Speaker B:Like to just see him like I love that scene.
Speaker B:It's such a good, well shot SC scene.
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:To see like him in the Upside down and also in the real world and them not being able to like break through and see what's happening, it's really.
Speaker A:Yeah, it was, it was kind of a.
Speaker A:The first reminder in this season for me anyway of what they can do with their effects with their camera work.
Speaker A:I just, I love in the editing because the Joyce trying to get to him and all of that plays out so well.
Speaker B:Truly amazing.
Speaker B:So Will is overtaken and it's leaving.
Speaker B:Joyce is terrified by what she sees and she sees.
Speaker B:And as she sees, Will is starting to change.
Speaker B:Like he's not quite himself.
Speaker B:He begins to have different like things that feel a little bit off.
Speaker B:Hopper is chasing down the mystery of a rotten.
Speaker B:Of rotten crops.
Speaker B:So things are starting to rot inside the town.
Speaker B:So he's getting all these weird calls.
Speaker B:He goes out.
Speaker B:It's strange.
Speaker B:He discovers through this mystery, the spreading tunnels beneath Hawkins that are happening, all coming from the labs, only to be trapped inside one of these tunnels.
Speaker B:Goes in, you know, does the hopper thing.
Speaker B:He's going to figure it out all on his own, doesn't have any backup, decides that he can do it.
Speaker B:He's a.
Speaker B:He's a one man army of pure policing force with coffee and donuts on the.
Speaker A:It's almost like he doesn't have a child who has superpowers at his cabin that could have helped him.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, because he's gonna do it on his own.
Speaker B:He's telling.
Speaker B:He's like, he's leaving her lockdown.
Speaker B:He.
Speaker B:He was.
Speaker B:As he was leaving Eggos for Elle, he was also eating them as well.
Speaker B:In the sense that, like, this is.
Speaker B:This is not.
Speaker B:This is not.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:Like, it's like he's not in fighting shape, is what I'm trying to say.
Speaker B:To be doing this all on his own, as we find out in the next season, we'll talk about that.
Speaker B:Anyway, at the same time, Eleven pushes back on her complete isolation.
Speaker B:It's actually really concerning how he's treating the situation.
Speaker B:I know he's, like, scared.
Speaker B:But she's very isolated, and I'm glad that she pushes back.
Speaker B:Her search for answers takes her to Terry Ives, where she discovers the devastating truth of her stolen childhood.
Speaker B:Nancy and Jonathan, determined to give Barb justice.
Speaker B:They team up and they go on a search to one of our favorite conspiracy theorists, Murray, to find a way to bring the lab into light.
Speaker B:And all that's happened, and Dustin realizing really rapidly that Dart is rapidly evolving into something dangerous.
Speaker B:He turns to the most unlikely ally he could find.
Speaker B:Steve Harrington.
Speaker A:Reminder that Dart ate Muse.
Speaker A:I'm just.
Speaker A:He's so cute.
Speaker A:Oh, adore.
Speaker A:Poor little Dart.
Speaker A:Oh, he ate the cat.
Speaker A:He ate.
Speaker A:He actually ate Dustin's family pet.
Speaker B:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Dart, in my opinion, like Billy, is a standard for the Karate Kid.
Speaker B:I see all these references.
Speaker B:This is how you can see all their influences.
Speaker B:Dart is a standard for Gremlins.
Speaker B:Like, this is Gremlins.
Speaker B:Like, they give you.
Speaker B:Like, And.
Speaker B:And I think.
Speaker B:I think the eating of the cat is a metaphor for the Gremlins fans who hated Gizmo.
Speaker B:Like, there's a lot of Gremlins fans who hated Gizmo.
Speaker B:Like, legit.
Speaker B:They were like, oh, he's very.
Speaker B:He's cute.
Speaker B:He's adorable.
Speaker B:And so Muse.
Speaker A:I also did not like Gizmo.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker A:But I like Muse.
Speaker B:Muse.
Speaker B:Muse.
Speaker B:Muse did nothing wrong.
Speaker B:He did nothing wrong.
Speaker B:So let's talk about it.
Speaker B:Let's pour one out for the cat who took the L in as a stand in for one furry gremlin.
Speaker B:Muse, an adorable cat.
Speaker B:The best companion to Mrs. Henderson.
Speaker B:This goes out to all our fallen homies.
Speaker B:Yo.
Speaker A:Don'T let the gym get like that, y'.
Speaker B:All.
Speaker B:And the unnamed lab employees in the military that perished between chapter four and chapter five.
Speaker B:There's always some unnamed motherfuckers out here.
Speaker A:That they never know who these people are.
Speaker A:They're just unnamed, just extras that died at the lab.
Speaker B:They get it.
Speaker B:They get the copy from their agent and it's like, okay, here's the thing.
Speaker B:You're going to be in Stranger Things.
Speaker B:Here's the other thing.
Speaker B:You're going to die with no lines and just look terrified.
Speaker B:Can you look terrified?
Speaker A:Also, you might die off screen.
Speaker A:It's a possibility that you'll have a single line in one episode and never see you again.
Speaker B:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker B:So these first few episodes, you know, they set up a lot of relationship dynamics that are going to be kind of.
Speaker B:I mean, there was some seeds planted in season one, but this really sets us on the trajectory.
Speaker B:I think season two really starts us with the relationship dynamics down the road that we'll see in.
Speaker B:In season three and season four and possibly, I'm assuming, in season five.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So let's talk about one that was a new, like, we didn't know was even happening.
Speaker B:When he walks in the store, I'm kind of like, who the hell is this guy?
Speaker B:Let's talk about Bob and let's talk about Joyce.
Speaker B:Like, I actually.
Speaker B:I mean, I like.
Speaker B:I like Bob.
Speaker B:I like Bob and Joyce together.
Speaker B:At first, I'm kind of like, you know, the fan of me.
Speaker B:It's kind of like, oh, I thought Hopper and Joyce had a thing.
Speaker B:But I like Bob.
Speaker B:I think Bob is a good dude.
Speaker A:I love Bob.
Speaker A:Bob is such a great character to introduce and also has an impact on the story beyond his time.
Speaker A:He's only in one season.
Speaker A:They had to have known that they weren't going to have him for more than, you know, the.
Speaker A:I think he's in six of the nine episodes or whatever.
Speaker A:He's a really good character.
Speaker A:Patty Newby is an important character that we learn about later in season four.
Speaker A:That's his.
Speaker A:Bob's, I think, younger sister who did.
Speaker A:And so I think that he's a really impactful character.
Speaker A:But I also think it gives Joyce something else.
Speaker A:Another person that isn't just her boys and Hopper to have a dynamic with.
Speaker A:And I think considering that when this show was initially developed, Joyce was really the main character.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Like, that they give.
Speaker A:There's another adult character.
Speaker A:Joyce has another.
Speaker A:Has an adult relationship in this.
Speaker A:That's not just her banter with Hopper.
Speaker A:Her entire world still centers around Will and his recovery, but she gets adult stuff to do.
Speaker A:She has a boyfriend.
Speaker A:She seems happy.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, that's the thing.
Speaker A:It seems.
Speaker A:It seems like everyone's healing on the outside, but actually right beneath that first level, everyone's still really traumatized about what happened the year before.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think, like, what I really love is in that scene we referenced in the adult content, warning is like, he comes in, they're making out.
Speaker B:You know, there's like this.
Speaker B:They establish their desire for each other.
Speaker B:But then there's something else that's really powerful in that moment, is like, when they say, hey, we're going to have movie night tonight.
Speaker B:And he's like, hey, it's Jonathan's time to pick.
Speaker B:He, like, reminds Joyce of that.
Speaker B:Like, he's attentive to the children and, like, not like he doesn't.
Speaker B:He's.
Speaker B:He's there, like, connecting with Joyce, but also trying to forge a relationship with her boys, which I think is beautiful.
Speaker B:And it's like, it shows that he's just.
Speaker B:Just his character.
Speaker B:He shows up as a really good dude and just like, wanting to, like, like, have family.
Speaker B:And he.
Speaker B:You can see that he cares about Joyce and her kids.
Speaker A:So 100%.
Speaker A:He's a.
Speaker A:He would have been a very good stepdad because he's trying really hard.
Speaker A:And even though Jonathan doesn't.
Speaker A:Is more skeptical of him.
Speaker A:I think just because Jonathan is older and his own.
Speaker A:He's been hurt before by Lonnie.
Speaker A:And I think Jonathan is just like a little bit more of a cynical character.
Speaker A:Will is giving it a shot.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:He's like, this dude is corny, but he makes mom happy.
Speaker A:I'm going to try to make it work.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, for sure, for sure.
Speaker B:And then there's some other interesting relationship dynamics that have to deal with, like, relationships.
Speaker B:There's a face off between Dustin and Lucas, who are attempting to win the hand of a person they didn't even meet yet.
Speaker B:They haven't had a conversation with Max.
Speaker B:Maxine, she is one of the new kids in town and Dustin and Lucas are really, really competing.
Speaker B:And she's just struggling to be accepted by the group, but also struggling to find her way in.
Speaker B:Hawkins as like the new person.
Speaker B:Like, what do you think of this whole dynamic with the three of them?
Speaker A:First of all, what an iconic entrance into the show Max has.
Speaker A:She is just.
Speaker A:I think Max, of all the characters that we meet over the course of the four seasons, I think Max is probably the most important character that we meet because so when you think about Max, like a lot of the rest of the story doesn't unfold without her, which is not really true about Robin or I guess Murray is kind of like.
Speaker A:Robin and Murray are important.
Speaker A:No disrespect to them or their characters.
Speaker A:Bob is an important character, too.
Speaker A:I just said that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But Max feels like a linchpin character.
Speaker A:Like, if you pull her out, some of it starts kind of like unraveling.
Speaker A:This dynamic between Dustin, Lucas and Max in the beginning half of the season is so funny to me.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I actually thought Dustin was going to win this one.
Speaker A:And maybe if Dustin hadn't been running around after that disgusting, slimy little animal.
Speaker B:You're blaming Dart.
Speaker B:You're blaming Dart for the fall of Dustin's ability to scoop Max.
Speaker A:I'm just saying Lucas was able to focus.
Speaker B:Lucas did focus Lucas out here.
Speaker A:Dustin was out here chasing around some amphibian.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:That he.
Speaker A:He found in the trash.
Speaker A:He literally found it in the trash.
Speaker B:But here's the question.
Speaker B:Lucas is talking about that life, but Dustin is out here living it.
Speaker B:He's dealing with the animals that are coming from the Upside Down.
Speaker B:Later on in another season, he will do the whole science project.
Speaker B:Lucas is out here spilling the beans about things that they were not supposed to let leave the party to win Max over to.
Speaker B:That was his smooth move is like, here it is.
Speaker B:Let me give you all the secrets of the party and let you into.
Speaker B:If I'm Mike and I'm Dustin, I'm calling party foul.
Speaker B:I'm calling a party foul.
Speaker B:This is a party foul.
Speaker A:It's a little rough.
Speaker A:Listen, you know that my relationship with Lucas not always the best.
Speaker A:Like if.
Speaker A:If I have to pick from that family, Erica is the character she.
Speaker B:Because.
Speaker B:Because.
Speaker B:Because as many of our friends in failure said, there are very.
Speaker B:You as a child and Erica have a lot of crossover.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Just because I also liked My Little Pony who didn't like.
Speaker A:Honestly who was born in the 80s and didn't like My Little Pony.
Speaker B:But it's not just the My Little Pony.
Speaker B:It's the witty repartee.
Speaker B:It's the unwilling to suffer foolishness of the friends any of time that you and you and.
Speaker B:And my Sister would.
Speaker B:Would be like, oh, no, we're not putting up with Paul's crap.
Speaker B:This is an Erica move.
Speaker B:This is.
Speaker B:This is a very, very connected Erica, who I. I relate to Lucas on that level, and that's where it stops.
Speaker A:I mean, I. I'll take that as a win.
Speaker A:Erica's much better at math than I ever was, though.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's like, struggles with math.
Speaker A:Erica's apparently a math servant.
Speaker A:Like, I. I don't know.
Speaker B:I can't wait till we get to season three.
Speaker B:Erica.
Speaker B:Season three Erica is.
Speaker B:Is not peak Erica, but very good Erica is where we really start to understand more.
Speaker A:I really hope we get, like, enough Erica in season five, because she kind of falls to the wayside in season four.
Speaker B:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker B:I agree.
Speaker B:So, I mean, like, so.
Speaker B:So there's that whole dynamic that's going on with.
Speaker B:With Dustin and.
Speaker B:And Max and.
Speaker B:And Lucas, and then, you know, there's like, one of the.
Speaker B:The anchors of this season because it sets things in motion for Elle's journey is this.
Speaker B:This.
Speaker B:This relationship with Hopper getting a second chance at being a dad, but also.
Speaker B:But also kind of like, overdoing it, being overprotective based on loss, like his.
Speaker B:His inability to, like, really, like, you know, make square what happened to his biological daughter.
Speaker B:And El, like, holding him to his word, like, hey, you said this is going to happen.
Speaker B:This was going to happen.
Speaker B:And she's been a little bit of a brat, you know, with superpowers.
Speaker B:I mean, only thing I would give props to Hopper about is, like, you've seen this child do things that.
Speaker B:And you're out here, like, beefing and chest puffed out, like, yo, you not doing this.
Speaker B:This, that.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:I'm like, she can throw you across the room with her mind, like, what are you doing?
Speaker B:So it shows that they've at least forged a relationship, that she wouldn't use her powers to hurt him in that way.
Speaker B:Totally.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:Like, so, no, she definitely doesn't mind using them to remind.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:That they exist.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But I. I think, again, this is another thing the show excels at.
Speaker A:There's something for everybody.
Speaker A:I think that.
Speaker A:That my experience of season two, when it came out, was different than my experience now because I now have under my belt a lot of my friends complaining about their preteen children, and I'm like, yeah, this is very relatable.
Speaker A:Like, the kind of the.
Speaker A:The inability to explain rules to.
Speaker A:To them and make them understand it.
Speaker A:I think that's very relatable.
Speaker A:Sometimes things are just dangerous, and we don't really want to explain why.
Speaker A:And sometimes things are so dangerous that we want children to just listen to us and like.
Speaker A:But on the flip side, Elle has been locked up her entire life.
Speaker A:She's finally met some friends and connected to some people that she deeply cares about, and she's now being kept away from the entire world.
Speaker A:She's not allowed to leave this cabin.
Speaker A:She's not allowed to even have the.
Speaker A:The curtains open during the day.
Speaker A:She.
Speaker A:She's basically learning everything about what it is to be, you know, out of the lab from television.
Speaker A:It's a terrible existence for anyone, but especially a girl her age.
Speaker A:But also one who has, like, a ton of trauma about being locked up all the time.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I agree.
Speaker B:And I feel bad for Elle with all of that.
Speaker B:I do not feel bad for Mike.
Speaker B:I just do not.
Speaker B:I just.
Speaker B:No, actually, to be fair, I think it's more later that I start to really get irritated with Mike at this point.
Speaker B:I think I'm reading too much of season three into my feelings around this whole separation part.
Speaker B:But if I were.
Speaker B:If I.
Speaker B:If I were to say anything in this part, I feel like Mike has connected with Elle and he misses L. But he also is.
Speaker B:I think there's a.
Speaker B:There's something that's still kind of there where I think, like, they.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's the avatar problem.
Speaker B:I'm not ready to see them all boot up in season two.
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker B:Like, I wasn't for, like, Katara and Aang.
Speaker B:It's like, come on.
Speaker A:This is the second time this week that somebody has brought up Katara and Aang to me.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Just talking about young people who don't need to have booze.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:This is where I'm at with it.
Speaker B:I'm like, you're.
Speaker B:It's just too much, right?
Speaker B:Like, so.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I, I'm.
Speaker B:I, I, I guess where I.
Speaker B:Where I land is like, that.
Speaker B:That, you know, Elle.
Speaker B:I'm glad that they gave her the.
Speaker B:The whole arc for Elle is about.
Speaker B:In this episode is, like, making peace with the past and understanding that, like, her.
Speaker B:Who her family is like, that.
Speaker B:Her newfound family, like, these groups of people.
Speaker B:And I think without that separation, that journey doesn't happen.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:She's going to be.
Speaker B:So she has to realize the value of her relationship with Mike and her relationship with Will and Hopper and Joyce and Lucas and Dustin.
Speaker B:And let's be honest, Elle kind of fucked Max up at the beginning of their Relationship.
Speaker B:She was like, yeah, I'm not a fan.
Speaker B:You're talking to Mike.
Speaker B:It's a little bit crazy.
Speaker B:So little.
Speaker B:Little wild.
Speaker A:I love that scene so much because I love the fact that Mike is actually telling, like, Max, who is the most emotionally mature of all the kids.
Speaker A:Right, right.
Speaker A:Knows that Mike doesn't like her and doesn't want her to be part of the party.
Speaker A:She can feel that right away.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:She.
Speaker A:I also think there's a point where it's acknowledged that Will doesn't seem to care either way.
Speaker A:So Dustin and Lucas want her in.
Speaker A:Will is kind of like, whatever.
Speaker A:If that's what they want, that's what they want.
Speaker A:But Mike is like, no, if a girl's coming in, it can only be mine.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:This is what I'm saying.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But Max is sitting there, and she's like, how can I.
Speaker A:How can I make him understand?
Speaker A:I'm not trying to take.
Speaker A:Ls, please.
Speaker A:And she engages him in this conversation about, like, it seems like, l was pretty cool.
Speaker A:Tell me more.
Speaker A:And he's doing that.
Speaker A:And then Ella's like, omg, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:You are acknowledging the existence of another girl.
Speaker A:She must fall.
Speaker B:She must fall off the skateboard right away.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's too much.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:You know, and I think.
Speaker B:You know, I think, like, you said something about Max earlier also about, like, you know, how consequential she is to the storyline.
Speaker B:And, you know, we see this play out with, like, what happens with Billy and, like, her backstory of where she's come from and her parents and all of that stuff.
Speaker B:But I think the other piece of it is how she clearly completes the party, like, in a way that you didn't know that the party needed.
Speaker B:And she also assigns herself a role.
Speaker B:She's like, okay, well, if Elle was the mage, I'm the zoomer.
Speaker B:Like, I'm gonna be like, the.
Speaker B:I'm, like, the person who's, like, gonna push us through danger or take risk or, you know, like.
Speaker B:And I thought that was pretty interesting to see a person that's, like, I know myself well enough, even as a young person, that I'm, like, edgy and capable.
Speaker B:And I thought she was.
Speaker B:She was.
Speaker B:She, like you said, has a good social awareness.
Speaker B:I really love her as a character.
Speaker B:Like, I love this character for someone.
Speaker A:Who is actually quite, like, introverted.
Speaker A:She's quite comfortable in her own skin and self aware in a way that I don't think any of the other younger characters are at this Point.
Speaker A:And frankly, sometimes I don't think Nancy is.
Speaker A:And Nancy's got a few years on these kids, right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Max is a really great addition to the plot.
Speaker A:Even though I don't cast.
Speaker A:Even though I don't always like Max.
Speaker A:I have moments.
Speaker A:But she adds something to the group dynamic they needed, which was a skeptic.
Speaker A:Someone who wasn't immersed in their D and D world as deeply, but also someone who is just very confident and doesn't care what people think about her.
Speaker B:Yeah, 100%.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:100%.
Speaker B:I love it.
Speaker B:And what do we think about Billy's role as an antagonist?
Speaker B:Like, do you think?
Speaker B:I know we have our feelings around Billy, so he's introduced in this moment and he's kind of like not the antagonist because we still have the shadow monster as the main antagonist, but as an antagonist and kind of like, you know, he's kind of taking the whole I'm cooler than Steve and I'm.
Speaker B:I'm the.
Speaker B:I'm the king of the hill in the high school thing.
Speaker B:Very Teen Wolf, by the way, that basketball scene.
Speaker B:I'm just gonna call out all the references I see every time I see them.
Speaker B:Very Teen Wolf.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:What do you think about Billy's introduction?
Speaker A:I hate it.
Speaker A:I don't like Billy's character.
Speaker A:I think that they.
Speaker A:And I don't mean that like I don't like Billy.
Speaker A:I mean, I don't like Billy's character.
Speaker A:I think Billy is a very one dimensional character for an entire season.
Speaker A:And then they try to give us a little bit more later, and it just doesn't work for me.
Speaker A:Like, Billy was not a character who I could ever see having a redemption arc because Billy is such a shithead for so long in the story.
Speaker A:So the way that Billy treats Steve Sucks.
Speaker A:But Steve can take it, right?
Speaker A:The way that Billy treats his sister.
Speaker A:Absurd.
Speaker A:How can I ever.
Speaker A:How can I ever, ever, ever have this character redeemed when he treats his little sister like absolute trash?
Speaker A:And then the way that Billy goes to the.
Speaker A:The edge of being racist.
Speaker A:They don't give us any reason why he doesn't like Lucas.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so Lucas is one of two black characters on the show.
Speaker A:Three of you include the police officer who works with Hopper.
Speaker A:But I don't even know that character's name.
Speaker A:So only Erica and Lucas are.
Speaker A:Are characters who are black who have.
Speaker A:Who have names and lines.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:He doesn't react as strongly to seeing his sister with any other character.
Speaker A:For some reason, she can't be around Lucas.
Speaker A:But then we're supposed to believe, like, it's the.
Speaker A:They've tried to say multiple times that it's not because Billy is racist.
Speaker A:Like, I don't.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think.
Speaker B:I think, like, this is a real conversation about audience interpretation versus the intent of the author.
Speaker B:And even if they're saying that that wasn't their intent.
Speaker B:When you place a character in a world and you.
Speaker B: ld, where we're talking about: Speaker B:We're talking about less than 20 years or about around 20 years for the civil rights movement and the signing of.
Speaker B:The signing of the Civil Rights Act.
Speaker B:There's a lot of still kind of residual weirdness.
Speaker B:And we're talking about Indiana.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so now there's a couple of times where Race comes up, right?
Speaker B:There's, like.
Speaker B:There's the whole this thing that we're talking about, and then there's also this bickering about who can be Venkman and who needs to be Winston and Ghostbusters.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:That was funny.
Speaker A:Mike is like, obviously, you're Winston.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker B:Yeah, right, right.
Speaker B:No, I mean, they obviously play it up, but this is.
Speaker B:This is what I think you're hitting on is like, there is something swirling around that they try to swim away from when it comes to Race in the commentary after they made it.
Speaker B:Maybe it's also because of the.
Speaker B:What was happening in the world in the moment when this season dropped.
Speaker B:They were trying to not have to have those conversations.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But I do think, like, to me, that doesn't seem like, very clear as a person watching, as to why he would have a problem with Lucas for any other reason.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:That seems.
Speaker B:That seems pretty clear to me that there's something there.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so I just think they let the Billy stuff go on too long.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So Billy comes on the show in season two.
Speaker A:He's terrible to everybody.
Speaker A:He has no redeeming qualities.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And then we.
Speaker B:He's not terrible to everybody.
Speaker B:Mrs. Wheeler is.
Speaker B:Is.
Speaker A:That's in season three, though, right?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:Oh, no.
Speaker A:Oh, that's right.
Speaker A:It starts in season two.
Speaker B:Starts in season two.
Speaker B:He goes up and he's, like, with the shirt unbuttoned.
Speaker B:He's very happy to see her.
Speaker B:She's coming from, like, getting out of a bath.
Speaker A:Listen.
Speaker A:I mean, they both look good in that scene, but for the most part, he's terrible to everyone.
Speaker A:And of course, they give us a little bit of a taste of his father's abuse to him so that we know that Billy is not doing this in a vacuum.
Speaker A:This is also based off of his trauma.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And, and that's.
Speaker A:I think I said last week that that that's the overall theme of the show, is that trauma stays.
Speaker A:It lingers, it grows, it festers.
Speaker A:It's what created the Upside down, as far as we can tell.
Speaker A:And so they planted some seeds, but they just made him be terrible for so long that by the time we get to that scene in season three where Elle is learning more about Billy by examining his memories, by the time we get there, I wasn't, I didn't.
Speaker A:It was hard for me to care.
Speaker A:Like, it wasn't that.
Speaker A:I understand that Billy was once a little boy who had a tragic story, who.
Speaker A:His mother abandoned him basically.
Speaker A:But I wish they would have shown some of that stuff to us instead of getting it so late.
Speaker A:We get that, I think midway through season three, and that's like 10 episodes deep into this guy being terrible to everybody.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, he is a cartoon.
Speaker B:He's a cartoon villain a lot of the time.
Speaker B:And I think, like, again, but that's, that's why I drew that.
Speaker B:And like, it was intentional.
Speaker B:Intentional.
Speaker B:Like I grew up on those movies.
Speaker B:Like we all did.
Speaker B:Like, that grew up in that time period.
Speaker B:But like, you know, like Karate Kid, Back to the Future with Biff, like, they were very one dimensional meathead, kind of like Teen Wolf, like, kind of villains.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And I think that these guys, the Duffers, are very, very inspired by these things.
Speaker B:And they call back to those, those, those places.
Speaker B:The thing is, the audience in this time period has grown to the point where if you're gonna do that, it, They're.
Speaker B:They.
Speaker B:We've had Zuko, one of the greatest redemption arcs ever.
Speaker B:Ever.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Like, so we.
Speaker B:Jaime Lannister, although, okay, arguably not a.
Speaker A:Good redemption arc arc.
Speaker B:He's not a good redemption arc.
Speaker B:I, I'm owning that.
Speaker B:I'm saying he's not a good redemption arc at all.
Speaker B:Like, he, he, he gets to the edge and then it falls apart.
Speaker B:But the point is, we as an audience can't do one dimensional characters the way we once did.
Speaker B:But they are.
Speaker A:Especially with our villains.
Speaker A:Yeah, especially with our villains.
Speaker A:Like, I can't remember exactly what year this season two came out, but, like, you know, I believe it was before Black Panther.
Speaker A:So it was before we had, you know, Kale Monger be this like multi dimensional villain that was saying stuff that we agreed with.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, some of the audience was like, yeah, he's making good points, but it wasn't before we Had Magneto and all, you know, like, we need our villains.
Speaker A:We need our villains to be a little bit better than this.
Speaker A:And I think one of the things that this show.
Speaker A:Show has struggled with in the very beginning, and maybe because it was supposed to be an anthology show and it wasn't supposed to be one unified story, is it like, we don't really understand the motivations behind the main villain because they're not really given to us.
Speaker A:We.
Speaker A:It's season four is when we learned that Vecna.
Speaker A:Before that there.
Speaker A:There's the Demogorgons and the.
Speaker A:And the Mind Flayer and, you know, all of that.
Speaker A:But it's like these are like amorphous things.
Speaker A:Like, these are not concrete villains.
Speaker A:So Billy is kind of the antagonist where Steve was, right?
Speaker A:And I think because audience get used to that formula where you introduce an antagonist and then he joins the team.
Speaker A:I think we were a little bit expecting, like, Billy to become part of the team towards the end of the season.
Speaker A:And the absolute opposite happens, right?
Speaker B:No, no, no.
Speaker B:100%.
Speaker B:I mean, he gets knocked the fuck out.
Speaker B:He does fuck Steve up again.
Speaker B:Steve just should stop fighting.
Speaker A:Like three season.
Speaker A:Yeah, Free season, Steve gets his ass handed to him.
Speaker A:Yeah, that guy.
Speaker A:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker A:In some of the promo for season four, I mean, season five, they.
Speaker A:They have done some interviews with the various cast members, and they had all the older teens together.
Speaker A:So Robin, Steve, Nancy and Jonathan, all the actors.
Speaker A:And apparently in the Jonathan Steve scene, he.
Speaker A:Jonathan really hit Steve twice.
Speaker B:Oh, wow.
Speaker A:He didn't mean to.
Speaker A:He, like, hit him once and then he was like, oh, my God, I'm sorry.
Speaker A:And then he hit him again.
Speaker A:And I'm like, yo, they're really taking real beatings.
Speaker B:Oh, my gosh, that's hilarious.
Speaker B:I mean, you got to make it real.
Speaker B:You got to make it realistic.
Speaker B:I think characters being one dimensional is something that we talked about, but I think, like, where they did add some nuance and, you know, I think, I think was with the relationship with Bob and.
Speaker B:And Will, I really.
Speaker B:It ends up being really tough advice because it ends up being the very thing that.
Speaker B:That leads to him being possessed by the shadow monster.
Speaker B:But I thought it was.
Speaker B:I thought it was really, you know, awesome to see this kind of like, hey, I'm not just.
Speaker B:I'm not just relating to you as a guy that's dating your mom.
Speaker B:I also can relate to you from a standpoint of I was that nerdy kid, or I was that outcast kid that people picked on and that Nobody paid attention to really.
Speaker B:Let me tell you what works for me and what has worked for me.
Speaker B:And I thought that was a. I thought that was a powerful scene.
Speaker B:Another kind of nod to Bob's character.
Speaker A:I totally agree.
Speaker A:It.
Speaker A:It comes back later as a problem.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But I don't think it's bad advice.
Speaker A:It's just that Bob didn't know exactly what he was dealing with.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Bob thought that Will was having, like, actual dreams and stuff.
Speaker A:He didn't realize the full weight.
Speaker A:Only Hopper and Joyce really know that of the adults.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And Dr. Owens.
Speaker A:And so Bob was giving him actually very good advice about facing down your fear.
Speaker A:The problem is that that fear is also a survival tactic.
Speaker A:And that Will was able to use his fear of the Upside down to kind of escape from the forces that were trying to possess him.
Speaker A:But then when he has to stand his ground, it turns out it's not actually just a vision.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And this is not Bob's fault, in my opinion.
Speaker A:This is Dr. Owen's fault because he's the one who planted this.
Speaker A:Kind of like, be fine.
Speaker A:It's just ptsd.
Speaker A:No, this is like a really real force that's trying to take Will over.
Speaker A:And no one really takes that seriously until Joyce starts to put the pieces together because she notices in the video again, also, Bob was the one who told Joyce to look at the video because he was like, he got bullied.
Speaker A:And you should take a look at that.
Speaker A:And she sees that, and she sees that he's being bullied.
Speaker A:But she also notices the shadow monster in the video, which I was like, damn choice.
Speaker A:I would have never noticed that.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, camcorder VHS's used to be fuzzy as hell.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You would have thought that she was looking at a high def picture.
Speaker A:But, yeah, she noticed stuff like that.
Speaker A:And so Bob is so caring and observing and really wants.
Speaker A:Not just.
Speaker A:He wants to be part of this family.
Speaker A:He doesn't just want to date Joyce.
Speaker A:He doesn't just want to maybe marry Joyce.
Speaker A:He wants to be this.
Speaker A:To be his family.
Speaker A:And I think he.
Speaker A:He makes real efforts in a way that we can never imagine.
Speaker A:Hopper, who has kind of was kind of the surrogate dad of season one.
Speaker A:We can't ever imagine Hopper doing this stuff.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:He's not good at this stuff.
Speaker A:He's not good at talking to the kids about how they feel.
Speaker A:You know, he's good at protecting people, at taking action.
Speaker A:But Bob is more of a person who's good at the emotional and the social.
Speaker A:Emotional side of that.
Speaker B:And it also.
Speaker B:It.
Speaker B:I totally agree.
Speaker B:And it also, like, really hits on the fact that in Hawkins, because of this.
Speaker B:This undercurrent of, like, secrecy and the shadow monster.
Speaker B:And what we eventually find out is Vecna and all the things that have happened that conventional parenting wisdom, things that would have normally.
Speaker B:And that conversation in a normal moment is just a surrogate parent telling him a good advice to like, hey, you can be.
Speaker B:And also foreshadows Bob's own bravery that he is a brave person.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That that's who.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That he grew into being this kind of brave person.
Speaker B:But it shows you how, you know, when the Upside down is involved.
Speaker B:It's very hard to, like, go with, like, the traditional way of thinking that you have to.
Speaker B:That they're like, that.
Speaker B:That doesn't work in this context.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I love this conversation.
Speaker B:I love.
Speaker B:I love the facing your fears.
Speaker B:And he lives it because he does end up facing his fears.
Speaker B:And, you know, we'll talk about that more.
Speaker B:More later on in.
Speaker B:In the next episode.
Speaker B:Next group of episodes.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think.
Speaker B:I think Lucas.
Speaker B:Let's talk about Lucas's sister, Erica.
Speaker A:Oh, wait.
Speaker A:Before we get to Erica, I do have one more thing to say about Bob.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:This is this conversation that Bob has with Joyce about how, like, nobody would have noticed him in high school.
Speaker A:Like, she didn't even know his name.
Speaker A:I think that's when they're making out in the stock room or whatever.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah, it is.
Speaker A:I don't understand why the duffer.
Speaker A:The play throws that there.
Speaker A:Joyce definitely knew his name, but, like.
Speaker B:Definitely does that how he.
Speaker B:Is that how he felt?
Speaker B:Maybe, like more than, like, hands.
Speaker A:He can't.
Speaker A:So I'm sure if.
Speaker A:If.
Speaker A:If this were my work, I would say, is it worth it to not write Bob Newby as a character in the play just because of this one line?
Speaker A:Probably not.
Speaker A:People get over it.
Speaker A:But I have to mention there was some retconning here.
Speaker A:This is not this line.
Speaker A:And in the line earlier, I think that Nancy says in season one about how her parents met, they are debunked in the play.
Speaker A:But the Nancy one is not so bad.
Speaker A:Because you're like, oh, kids don't always understand the dynamics between their parents.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You get pieces of stories or whatever.
Speaker A:This is Bob himself acting like Joyce wouldn't have known who he was when we know that from the play that Joyce absolutely knew who he was.
Speaker A:So I don't want to spoil.
Speaker A:I'm not going to spoil the play, but that's it.
Speaker A:I think that they just were like, maybe nobody will notice that.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's.
Speaker B:That's fair.
Speaker B:And this is something you told me about right after you watched the.
Speaker B:The play that you were worried about some of the.
Speaker B:The ways that they had to retcon things, you know, and.
Speaker B:And would change things, but that it's canon.
Speaker B:So, I mean, if they're saying, hey, this is.
Speaker B:This is part of the world, then it's part of the world.
Speaker B:So, yeah, that.
Speaker B:I guess we'll have to.
Speaker B:We'll look past those things.
Speaker B:Hey, look, we have looked past a lot in a lot of our fantasy worlds.
Speaker A:It's true.
Speaker A:I mean, this is like a small.
Speaker A:Again, if you're the Duffer Brothers and this play is being worked on, is it worth, like, bringing Bob back is probably more into the.
Speaker A:Integrating Bob's character into the play is probably more important than this line.
Speaker A:And when I saw the play and when Bob Newby walks on stage and he's introduced that way, the whole audience clapped.
Speaker A:No other character got that kind of welcome from the audience.
Speaker A:So obviously this is a beloved character they want to use in the play.
Speaker A:So it is what it is.
Speaker A:But I had to know that.
Speaker B:And also, I mean, like, look, we've.
Speaker B:We've.
Speaker B:In other fantasy shows, we've erased whole children, thankfully, but we have erased them.
Speaker B:Like, it's true.
Speaker B:People.
Speaker B:House of the Dragon.
Speaker B:What up?
Speaker B:Yeah, like, erasing whole children and whole people.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, I think.
Speaker B:I think that's.
Speaker B:It's a fair call out, though.
Speaker B:I just think, you know, what, a, like, nerd was such a big thing in the 80s.
Speaker B:And revenge of the Nerds, one of my all time favorite, favorite movies.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Small.
Speaker B:Like, I'm tall now, but I was.
Speaker B:I mean, I guess I was tall for my age, but I still felt small and like, pretty scrawny, big glasses.
Speaker B:When Revenge of the Nerds came out, it made me feel seen.
Speaker B:I felt seen.
Speaker B:When Revenge of the Nerds came out, I was like, this is amazing.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:But I. I will say.
Speaker B:I will say that, like it was.
Speaker B:It's pretty unrealistic that she would say nerd like that in front of her mama.
Speaker A:I'm just telling you the way that the Sinclair parents are written.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Those are not my black parents in the 80s or the 90s.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A: Or in fact, today, in: Speaker A:You think I can call my sister a nerd in front of my mom and just.
Speaker A:Is just cool like that?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:We're both grown women.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:My sister are both grown.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But I love that scene where she calls him a nerd.
Speaker A:First of all, it's so funny because of the way that she does it.
Speaker A:It's gifable.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:Erica's so adorable.
Speaker A:And also as an audience member, I was like, he's the nerd.
Speaker A:You're obsessed with My Little Pony.
Speaker A:You too, Erica, are into a fandom.
Speaker B:Oh yeah.
Speaker A:Because I don't know if.
Speaker A:I don't know if younger millennials know this because I'm an elder millennial.
Speaker A:So I had more of a Gen X experience of my early childhood.
Speaker A:There was a My Little Pony show.
Speaker A:My Little Pony movie.
Speaker A:There was.
Speaker A:Oh yeah, My Little Pony was.
Speaker A:It was a fandom.
Speaker A:It was not as big as Harry Potter, but it was a huge fandom.
Speaker A:And I love those movies.
Speaker A:I used to.
Speaker A:I had them all on vh.
Speaker A:Like I used to watch that.
Speaker A:Like, it was the way that I like repeat comfort shows now, like the Good Place or Downton Abbey or whatever.
Speaker A:My.
Speaker A:But I was definitely in the beginning stages of also being a nerd.
Speaker A:So I don't know why Erica.
Speaker B:That's right, She.
Speaker B:I mean, we find out later that she's just.
Speaker B:She is very much.
Speaker B:I mean, like you said, she's great at math.
Speaker B:She's.
Speaker A:Oh, Dustin.
Speaker A:Dustin is like.
Speaker A:So who's the nerd now, huh?
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker A:Who like Dustin really brings it back in season three, which I love because it's a good full circle moment.
Speaker A:But it was.
Speaker A:There's so many light hearted mo.
Speaker A:This is kind of a heavy season and there's so many light hearted moments like this that I, that I laughed out loud, heart like funny moments.
Speaker A:And so this one was a really good one.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The moment when Dustin says that three Musketeers is like a top three candy.
Speaker B:This is egregious.
Speaker B:This is egregious.
Speaker A:I've paused the episode.
Speaker B:Egregious.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:This sent me like, what.
Speaker A:What is actually happening right now?
Speaker A:Three musketeers.
Speaker B:Three Musketeers is not, is nowhere in.
Speaker B:It's not in the top five.
Speaker B:And for me, when we go top.
Speaker A:Five, it's not in the top 10.
Speaker A:If whenever I went trick or treating, if I got a three Musketeers, I immediately put that in my sister's pile.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That's for my sister.
Speaker B:Let's go.
Speaker B:Our top three.
Speaker B:Top three chocolate candies of the 80s.
Speaker B:Top three.
Speaker A:I mean, I don't know if these were all around in the 80s, but I'm gonna assume because most candy.
Speaker A:Candy bars haven't changed that.
Speaker B:They haven't changed that much.
Speaker A:All right, number one, Snickers.
Speaker B:Of course.
Speaker A:I don't care what nobody.
Speaker A:I had the Snickers yesterday.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Snickers is still number one.
Speaker A:I don't care what anybody says Snickers is.
Speaker A:There's something about the way the sweet, the crunchy, the salty all melt.
Speaker A:Snickers.
Speaker A:Top number, top tier.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Number two, Reese's Peanut Butter Cups.
Speaker B:We defer here, but I'll give you a Reese's Peanut Butter.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:What's your number two?
Speaker A:What's your number two?
Speaker B:My number two is the chocolate covered peanut M&M's.
Speaker B:That's my number two.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's a good one.
Speaker A:That's a good one.
Speaker A:Those are good.
Speaker B:They're very good.
Speaker B:They feel good.
Speaker B:They.
Speaker B:There's like, chocolate covered.
Speaker B:Something about the milk chocolate over the peanut.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's my number two.
Speaker A:That is.
Speaker A:Those are good.
Speaker A:I forgot about them entirely because my number three was gonna be Almond Joy.
Speaker A:Joys.
Speaker A:I love an Almond Joy.
Speaker A:I know that's controversial.
Speaker A:I know some people think Almond Joy and Mounds, which I hate.
Speaker A:I don't like Mounds.
Speaker A:But Almond Joy is, like, on par with Reese's with three Musketeers.
Speaker A:Absolutely not.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:I will fight people in the street over this.
Speaker A:I enjoy.
Speaker A:Because they're so tiny.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:The other thing about three Musketeers is they want to give you a whole bar of nougat.
Speaker A:It's just.
Speaker A:Come on.
Speaker B:It's rough.
Speaker B:But if I'm gonna go in that family.
Speaker B:If I'm gonna go in that family.
Speaker B:If we're going.
Speaker B:This is why I thought three Musketeers was so egregious.
Speaker B:If I gotta go in that family, my third.
Speaker B:I'm going Milky Way.
Speaker B:I like Milky Way.
Speaker A:I don't like Milky Way, but I can eat a Milky Way.
Speaker A:The notion of if someone were to chocolate or a Milky Way, I'm gonna take the Milky Way.
Speaker A:I'm not turning down the chocolate.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But the notion of no chocolate or three Musketeers, I'm good.
Speaker A:Pass.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:No chocolate for me.
Speaker A:I'm.
Speaker A:I will.
Speaker A:It was the wildest thing Dustin's ever said, and he's had some real, real wild things.
Speaker A:I. I actually needed a moment after he said that.
Speaker B:Candy I was forced to eat.
Speaker B:Candy I was forced to eat because, you know, my parents did go through.
Speaker B:I was a granola kid on some occasions.
Speaker B:So I didn't.
Speaker B:I didn't get.
Speaker B:Yeah, right.
Speaker B:I didn't get access to all of it.
Speaker B:So candy I was forcing was Raisinets.
Speaker B:Now, if I had to, if I like, I, I, I mean, it hurt, it hurts my soul to say them, even in this conversation, because they are not very good.
Speaker B:But as a kid, I was just happy to get them.
Speaker B:I was happy.
Speaker B:I just.
Speaker B:Happy.
Speaker B:Something chocolatey.
Speaker A:I don't think Raisinets are bad.
Speaker A:They're just not my favorite.
Speaker A:Like, I wouldn't pick them, but, you know, shout out to, to Angie, who is my closest, one of my closest friends.
Speaker A:She used to get Raisinets at the movies and I used to have some.
Speaker B:Yeah, they're good.
Speaker A:I, you know, that was like her.
Speaker A:She would get some Raisinets and I think some Twizzlers and we would share them.
Speaker A:And I never complained because they're perfectly fine.
Speaker A:Would I pick Raisinets?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:Me either.
Speaker B:But no.
Speaker A:Yeah, but they're, they're perfectly acceptable.
Speaker A:I can eat a few of those.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:So let's talk about our takeaways besides candy in this episode and what we learned.
Speaker B:What did we learn in this episode that kind of sticks with you?
Speaker B:That carries through maybe in other episodes and the rest of the series?
Speaker A:So I think, I know that people are probably annoyed of this because we've talked about this many times at this point and this is only our third episode on Stranger Things, but I do think that I just want to go through the Void and the Will's interaction with the Upside down, because I do think this is important.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So the fact that Will is kind of a bridge between the Upside down and Hawkins is not only important now, but is going to be important for the rest of the series.
Speaker A:It comes back in season three, it comes up in season four, and I absolutely think it's going to be important in season five.
Speaker A:And his relationship with the Upside down is really different than Elle's relationship with all of her.
Speaker A:Her powers.
Speaker A:So Elle can explore people's minds.
Speaker A:She can enter the Void to find people.
Speaker A:Those are distinct powers, as far as I can tell.
Speaker A:She's able to find people in the Void.
Speaker A:She's able to enter people's minds.
Speaker A:I'm not quite clear on how her powers work in either, but she's able to do these things.
Speaker A:But when she finds she can locate people, but she.
Speaker A:It's a one way connection.
Speaker A:Will is not having a one way connection here.
Speaker A:And in fact, Will's connection, he can both sense the other side, the Upside Down.
Speaker A:But the Upside down can also use Will, which they will later in order to spy on what the gang is doing.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so Will becomes a weapon of the Upside down in this season.
Speaker A:And it doesn't happen till later episodes, but we're seeing a glimpse of it early in these, in these first five episodes that Will, the connection isn't one sided, it's a two way street.
Speaker A:And that Will can be possessed.
Speaker A:I wondered in my second watch of season two is if Will can be used as a weapon for the Upside down, can the gang then use Will as a weapon for the right side up?
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, here's something that indicates that because we see L, that they must be using the experimentation that they did on Terry had to be for a reason along with what they're doing with L. And what we find out is there's a concept I'm thinking about, like, you know, memory as a weapon.
Speaker B:Like think about that with Will and Terry, that they're both trapped in some sort of way in memories.
Speaker B:And that trap with memory is really strong.
Speaker B:And we've talked about this before with the songs and the other things, but Terry, as we go into more detail later, she's like trapped in her own memories.
Speaker B:And you could connect kind of like that to the show itself and connection to our memories.
Speaker B:We've been referencing all these movies, nostalgia, things like that.
Speaker B:But it's also, I think it's also important because I think like this indicates that memory plays a role in how to handle or affect the Upside down.
Speaker B:And that memory in the right side up, like the ability to use your memory in the right side up and cultivate like, kind of like, oh, I'm going to this thought we'll see that later on can in fact impact what happens in the Upside Down.
Speaker B:So I think like, yeah, I think like that's one question that comes up with that for me that I took away.
Speaker B:And I also wonder we've talked about time.
Speaker B:Was Will always meant to be possessed in by the Mind Flayer because of this two way ability that he has and his connection to memory, was that always what was going to happen?
Speaker B:This kind of goes to that time loop thing we talked about in a previous episode.
Speaker B:Was it always going to be that way?
Speaker B:You know.
Speaker A:So if we take what we learned in season one and we look at season two and Will's experience, I think we have to assume that Will was always planned to be used in this way.
Speaker A:But maybe not exactly.
Speaker A:Maybe it didn't turn out exactly the way that Vecna had planned for him because I think he thought he would have more Time with Will in the Upside down in season one.
Speaker A:And because Will was not completely defenseless, he.
Speaker A:That plan was interrupted.
Speaker A:But I do think that Will was always supposed to have some kind of role in being like a bridge between the worlds and maybe being what Billy later becomes.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Possessed and then able to take out actions that help the Upside down have a.
Speaker A:Have a physical footing in the right side up.
Speaker A:Maybe that was originally the plan, but yeah, I think the answer to your question is yes.
Speaker A:I think this was planned, but not ex.
Speaker A:It didn't pan out exactly how it was planned.
Speaker A:Yeah, because the plan was.
Speaker A:The plan was interrupted.
Speaker B:Right, right.
Speaker B:I, I totally agree.
Speaker B:Is this a parallel, this thing that we're talking about, this two way of being.
Speaker B:How connected is that?
Speaker B:You know, they draw a parallel to D and D. They start talking about true sight and, you know, it resembles that aspect of Dungeons and Dragons.
Speaker B:You know, full disclosure, I'm not a.
Speaker B:This is not.
Speaker B:Should not be surprised.
Speaker B:Dungeon Dragons was super controversial in the 80s.
Speaker B:Who could play, who couldn't.
Speaker B:I didn't get a chance to play later on.
Speaker B:It was, it was, you know, it.
Speaker A:Became more normalized, I think, when I was in high school.
Speaker A:But I remember when I was in like elementary and middle school, it was still kind of like, Like a demon game.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But when I was in high school, I knew lots of people who played it openly.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:100 in high school, that I would say.
Speaker A:But I think that was around the time that like Marilyn Manson was normalized.
Speaker A:So like, like sort of like weird goth culture.
Speaker A:And I don't mean weird to be derogatory.
Speaker A:I mean, that's how it was described.
Speaker A:Like people saw a new subculture coming out where it was like, okay to be weird.
Speaker A:It was okay to do things that weren't mainstream.
Speaker A:But that was, you know, in the 90s and the early aughts.
Speaker B:Yeah, it was.
Speaker B:I mean, that's why I think that a character like Lucas and the fact that we've kind of danced around, you know, they, they don't really.
Speaker B:They say, oh, well, you know, this wasn't because he was black, that he didn't like him and blase, blah, blah.
Speaker B:And Lucas's character is revolution.
Speaker B:It's a, it's a, it's a, A black character in the suburbs playing DND a lot.
Speaker B:I know through experience that.
Speaker B:I'm not saying that was everyone's experience, but a lot of people's experience because of like the concern around the demonic portion of it didn't, didn't really in the Black community.
Speaker B:It didn't.
Speaker B:It didn't take us strong a hold as.
Speaker B:As what we're.
Speaker B:What.
Speaker B:What others might have done.
Speaker B:So I. I would say also.
Speaker B:So I don't know a lot about True Sight, but I do is why I say all that.
Speaker B:But I do know that it's described in the episode as what Will is experiencing.
Speaker B:Did you.
Speaker B:Do you have any takes on that or thoughts on that that you want to expound upon?
Speaker A:I think it's interesting that from what I understand from D and D, and I want everyone to.
Speaker A:Again, we are no experts on D and D. I actually had to check some of the research I'd done with a friend who started playing D and D during the pandemic.
Speaker A:She never even played it as a.
Speaker A:As a kid.
Speaker A:She started playing it as an adult.
Speaker A:But basically, True Sight is a character who has True sight in D and D is able to see through illusions and other planes.
Speaker A:But it's not in the same way that El can see through illusions and visit other planes.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's that they can interact as well.
Speaker A:That it's not like it over.
Speaker A:It overlaps with their regular reality.
Speaker A:It's not just like they can peek in.
Speaker A:And so I think that that's something that we have to note.
Speaker A:You know, like, Will, we.
Speaker A:I think we've said this already, but Will is very important, a very important character in seasons one and two.
Speaker A:And then he kind of takes a back seat in seasons three and four.
Speaker A:But I think these are the most important seasons going into season five.
Speaker A:I really think that.
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:Yeah, that the.
Speaker A:The season.
Speaker A:How can I put this?
Speaker A:For people to okay the Hunger Games series.
Speaker A:I think seasons one and two are the Hunger Games and Catching Fire, and then the seasons three and four are the Mockingjay, which is kind of like, you know, if you're thinking about the movies, Mockingjay Part one is kind of just setting up for.
Speaker A:For the conclusion, which is Mockingjay Part two.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think of that.
Speaker A:That foundation in seasons one and two being so important to whatever's gonna happen in the big finale in season five, even maybe more so than what happens in season three.
Speaker B:No, I can see that.
Speaker A:And Will is such a.
Speaker A:Will plays a pivotal role in season three, but only it in a couple of moments.
Speaker A:Otherwise, he kind of fades back.
Speaker A:Like he's frustrated because in season three because his friends are, you know, all about their girls or whatever, but he doesn't really have as much to do with the magic until.
Speaker A:Until it's important.
Speaker A:Until he's using it as a warning.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And so I think it's important to just note that, like this true sight that he has, he still has it.
Speaker A:Even though, as we'll discuss in our next episode, they managed to banish the Mind Flayer from Will's body.
Speaker A:He still has that connection.
Speaker A:He's still the bridge.
Speaker A:So I don't think that's going anywhere.
Speaker A:They've reminded us multiple times that he's a bridge.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Living like he's a bridge and not.
Speaker B:Not just a victim.
Speaker B:Like, sometimes it's easy to frame Will as a.
Speaker B:As a victim.
Speaker B:I think one of the other themes that I would say I take.
Speaker B:Take away.
Speaker B:I mentioned it earlier, but I don't want to, like, leave speaking about Will without that theme that we've been talking about about memory, but also that he.
Speaker B:He references now memories, which I think in being the Bridge, they're.
Speaker B:They're visions, but they're also invasive experiences.
Speaker B:So those now memories.
Speaker B:I don't know how to really describe what he's saying there other than, like, when that scene that we spoke about early in this episode about it being like, you know, everyone's seen the real world and he's seen the Mind Flayer, but he's also seen.
Speaker B:He's also in the real.
Speaker B:In the right side up.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:It's like the shadow monster uses those now memories to infiltrate and control him in this season.
Speaker B:And it kind of blurs.
Speaker B:It blurs that present, the past, the.
Speaker B:The Upside down to the right side up.
Speaker B:And then you can see how that mirrors where Terry's at because she's in a loop.
Speaker B:Like, she's totally in a loop when.
Speaker B:When.
Speaker B:When Elle goes to find her.
Speaker B:And it's like, you know, it's a psychic loop.
Speaker B:It's like she.
Speaker B:At one moment over and over and over and over and over again.
Speaker A:And we know not even one moment.
Speaker A:Fragments.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Of a mo.
Speaker A:Of multiple moments are.
Speaker A:She's just kind of stuck in them and she can't.
Speaker A:She can't get out of the loop.
Speaker A:So she's physically present in this world.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But she's lost in her mind.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So I just think those are things that I took away from the world Esteem that.
Speaker B:That there's, you know, that, you know, there is something about the memory that anchors.
Speaker B:There's a way that you.
Speaker B:The Upside down and these scientists can make it a prison.
Speaker B:There's a way that.
Speaker B:That the Upside down has worked to blur the line for Will.
Speaker B:I think we've talked a lot about the grief and trauma pieces of it, but I think that grief and trauma play a part on memories.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:How you experience something in your body, how you think about it will impact the way that you remember it.
Speaker B:So I think those things are kind of connected as well.
Speaker B:What are the takeaways?
Speaker A:You have the fact that in season two, everybody is dealing with the events of season one.
Speaker A:You've got Mike grieving, Elle, you've got Will still dealing with.
Speaker A:With the repercussions of having gone through this terrible experience.
Speaker A:You have Nancy carrying the weight of Barb's death.
Speaker A:Everybody is just living through this trauma.
Speaker A:And so the.
Speaker A:The shadow of that first season stretches into every single storyline.
Speaker A:And the grief and trauma linger and they shape everyone's choices, good or bad, proving that the upside down, the monsters, the scary things don't actually have to be present to still have an effect.
Speaker A:And it makes me wonder, even in the case that, let's say our.
Speaker A:Our folks are victorious at the end of season five and they don't nobody, they don't lose anybody else, and they're.
Speaker A:They're still going to carry the trauma forever.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, and yeah, that's fair.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:I agree.
Speaker B:I agree that, that that's a so real, man.
Speaker B:What.
Speaker B:It's a.
Speaker B:It's a beautiful story.
Speaker B:It's a heavy story.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's a scary story.
Speaker B:It's a try.
Speaker B:And so in moments, it's triumphant and you feel.
Speaker B:It's so.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's why we're here.
Speaker B:It's what we love about this.
Speaker B:That's why we're glad to be covering it.
Speaker B:And yeah, we.
Speaker B:That'll.
Speaker B:That'll do it for us, this episode.
Speaker B:So thank you so much for hanging out with us in Hawkins.
Speaker B:It is one of our favorite worlds, I gotta say.
Speaker B:So, you know, happy to be doing this.
Speaker A:And me too.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Happy to be doing this.
Speaker B:We've talked about it for years and so to be actually doing it, it feels.
Speaker B:It feels good.
Speaker B:So, yeah.
Speaker B:So hit us up if you got any thoughts on the episode or thoughts about the world or any of the characters, hit us up@kinfolkloremail.com kinfolklore pod on Instagram and on Twitter.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And we will see you next time.
Speaker A:Bye, everyone.
