Episode 2
Kinfolklore: Stranger Things Sn.1 (Chapters 5-8)
Welcome back to Kinfolklore, where Andrea and Paul dive deep into the fantasy and sci-fi worlds we love. Few shows capture that blend of nostalgia, terror, and friendship quite like Stranger Things.
This episode, we’re rewinding all the way back to Hawkins, Indiana, Fall 1983. The era of Eggos, Dungeons & Dragons, and the Demogorgon lurking just beyond the lights. In preparation for the final season dropping this November, Andrea and Paul are rewatching every episode from the very beginning, starting here with Season 1, Chapters 5–8: The Flea and the Acrobat, The Monster, The Bathtub, The Upside Down.
Chapters:
- 00:11 - Exploring Hawkins: The Fall of 1983
- 06:31 - The Epic Conclusion of Season One
- 13:26 - Understanding Elle: Hero or Monster?
- 17:38 - The Role of Community in Strengthening El's Character
- 27:26 - The Guilt of the Past
- 42:47 - The Emotional Stakes of Chosen Family
- 51:31 - The Dynamics of Character Connections
- 56:14 - Theories on Vecna and the Shadow Monster
- 01:05:41 - Exploring Will's Character and MK Ultra Connections
- 01:18:00 - The Impact of Trauma in Stranger Things
Links:
Transcript
Welcome back to Kinfolklore.
wkins, Indiana in the fall of: Paul:And I'm Paul. And these later chapters of Stranger Things ramp up the tension.
Friendships fracture, Hopper gets closer to the truth, investigatory skills on fleek, Nancy and Jonathan team up, and 11 has to face both her past and the monster.
Andrea:Today we're covering season one, chapters five through eight, the back half of the season where everyone comes together in the most terrifying climax. This season is legitimately scary. Legitimately.
Paul:No question.
Andrea:If you haven't seen up to chapter eight, pause this binge. Cuz again, we are a spoiler podcast, so really you should be watching the whole thing.
Paul:And why haven't you seen up to any of these? It's season one, damn it.
Andrea:Like, I know it's been nine years, but anyway, we're not here to judge you. Yes, if you haven't continued on your binge through chapter eight, then pause, come back later, will be here and just regular spoiler warning.
This is not spoiler free.
We will be talking about all of Stranger Things up to this point, with the exception of any of these sort of additional pieces like the play Stranger Things, the first Shadow, any of the books, I totally forgot last episode that there are books of Stranger Things. We will not be talking about sort of the sub canon pieces. We will at some point do a mini chapter on the first Shadow. Now.
Paul: et the memo that grease was a:Just like her mom, always going to get a shot of her dad.
Andrea:Is Ted just going to take a stray in every single episode?
Paul:Every single time? Every time.
So if you're here for Nancy and Jonathan's transition from awkward monster hunters to even more awkward teenagers discovering that they have feelings for each other, you have come to the right place. Let's go.
Andrea:Or Ted.
Paul:Ted deserves it. He's kind of just like checked out on everything. Anyway, the flea, the acrobat and the monster is what we're going to cover first.
So episodes five through six, the mystery of Hawkins start to crystallize in this. In these episodes, Mr. Clark's acrobat and the Flea lesson gives the Boys a framework for understanding the Upside Down.
But their hunt with their compasses only deepens the rift between Lucas and everybody. Everybody, really. He's.
Andrea:Lucas is beefing with everybody.
Paul:Yo, Lucas is on 10. When I went back and watched this season, I was just like, yo, why is Lucas so angry? It's like he's already.
But you know what, there's some things that he says that we'll discuss later. Makes you think. As I've progressed throughout the other seasons, I'm like, okay, maybe he.
Paul:Maybe this is. There's a reason why he brought up some of these things.
Paul:Anyway, he just. He mistrusts Elle. Like, let's just be honest. And Mike, who is vehemently defending her, he's getting irritated with Mike too.
But Hopper sneaks into the lab and uncovers proof of a cover up. This guy is like, you know, he's already discovered that the body had cotton stuffed. He's very suspicious.
His investigatory skills should have been not just a local cop. Sounds like he has some skills that go beyond that. Maybe even FBI, CIA. We'll discuss that later on. Who knows? He is an international man of mystery.
Paul:Let'S put it that way.
Paul:So he's finding proof of a cover up and wakes up drugged and shaken up. Meanwhile, Nancy and Jonathan begin investigating together. Their partnership is sealed when Nancy stumbles into the Upside Down.
This was the fact that upon my rewatch I had forgotten that Nancy, other than Will, is actually the first person.
Paul:To travel into the Upside Down.
Andrea:Dumbest moment of the whole series. I don't understand why she did that. But also again solidifies that Nancy is truly brave.
This is like a small town suburban girl who has been sheltered her whole life. She's very brave. And we see more of that in season season two. But unbelievably willing to step up.
Paul:Yeah. And barely escapes with her life. Like barely. Like by the. Just barely. Like the Demogorgon spotting her coming after her. It was crazy.
Eleven's memories reveal the terrible truth. Touching the creature in the void opened the gate. And that she carries the guilt of opening the gate. And that's kind of.
I mean it was interesting on that.
Paul:Walk over to the lab to where they were going. Her kind of trying to divert them from the path because she knows like hey.
Paul:Where they're heading towards. And Joyce and Hopper seek out Terry Ives, Elle's mom, dismissed as unstable after losing her baby at the lab. They're wanting to find out more about.
Paul:Her origins and who she is.
Paul:The episode crescendos at the Quarry, when the bullies corner Mike and Dustin, until Elle comes in and wrecks these bullies. I mean, saving them is.
Andrea:Can we just talk about how mean this was, though? Like, they deserved it. They deserved it. No doubt.
Paul:Yeah, no question.
Andrea:But homeboy Peed himself.
Paul:Like, she had him freeze. She could have done worse, though. We see Elle, like, Merc, people, like, out. So she could have done a lot worse. And she saves Mike's life. Like Mike.
They actually were going to make Mike jump and kill himself, essentially. He would have died. Right? So. So good thing she does step up and she's proving how. How fiercely she'll fight for her new friends, which is amazing.
Paul:Like, she's a. She's a ride or die for sure. Until.
Paul:Until a friend lies.
Paul:Then, you know, we'll get to that, though.
Andrea:So chapter seven and eight, The Bathtub and the Upside Down. This is like the epic conclusion of a very good first season. This is. This is probably Stranger Things Titus season that.
Paul:I mean, it sets the tone for.
Paul:Everything that follows, right?
Paul:Like, everybody falls in love with the.
Paul:Series based on this season, including ourselves, so it's great.
Andrea:So Dustin charms Mr. Clark into explaining sensory deprivation. I think this is where he says he's going on, like, a curiosity odyssey, something like that. It's very funny.
The kids essentially stage a heist to build a tank in the middle of the school. Sure, why not? Whatever. They're in middle school. Elle dives into the void, finding Barb dead.
We've already said our goodbyes to Barb in the previous episode, but this is where it becomes official. But Will is still alive at the same time. And this never. I never quite understood the group splitting up like this.
You got literal children, literal children doing one thing. You've got Joyce and Hopper, the adults doing something else.
And then the teenagers are over at the Byers residence preparing weapons to face the Demogorgon.
Paul:I don't understand it either. I. I don't. I don't get it. It threw me off, Ed.
Paul:I.
Just to circle back a bit, Mr. Clark, basically, in the 80s version of Netflix and chill on a hot date, sitting on the couch just to get interrupted by Dustin, like, was hilarious. Like. Like, like, why are you. I think what he said you were talking about was you. You talk about like. Like doors locking for the. For. For a.
Paul:For a knowledge journey.
Paul:Why are you keeping this door locked for me? Or something. Like, it was hilarious. I was like, bro, because Mr. Clark wants nothing to do with this.
He's like, literally on a couch chilling with a Girl like, what are you doing anyway? But I find it funny. I think the whole thing is crazy. The plan feels crazy. It feels as chaotic as you would expect a plan, though, from teenagers.
But I just don't understand what the.
Paul:Adults are thinking in this situation.
Andrea:Like, everyone is off doing their own thing. It's. Yeah, I get it. But works because of what we get from it. But just in terms of logic questions about this plan.
So Nancy and Jonathan are set a trap for the Demogorgon. And then Steve shows up to apologize. Not to Nancy, but to Jonathan. But Nancy happens to be there. Awkward. Super awkward.
Paul:Yeah. Very, very, very awkward.
Andrea:At the school, the kids are cornered until Elle confronts the Demogorgon, sacrificing herself to destroy it. Hawkins seems safe for now, but things don't stay calm for long.
Will coughs up a slug, and Hopper seems to know that Elle has survived this sacrifice because he's leaving Eggos in the woods. Her one true love. The only thing that might lure her out of her hiding space.
Paul:Let go. Let go. My ego. Hey, my question is the. They had to have known they were.
Paul:Getting a second season when they ended like this.
Paul:They had to have.
Andrea:Yeah, I think there's a lot. I think they knew. I'm guessing in like the testing and as the executives looked at it, they.
There's a lot of decisions that it felt like they must have known because one like. And I haven't read an article about this in a while, so I don't remember exactly the circumstances, but like, Steve was supposed to die.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:In season one. And I can't remember if it's. They liked the.
The character so much that they decided to give him a redemption arc or if like that first, that pilot episode that, you know, he was so well received. I don't really remember the circumstances. Don't quote me on it. But like, they made some decisions.
It was clear they were setting up for another season. But it is. And we can talk about this more later, but that they're clearly retconning a few things. Right. Because it.
As we said in our first episode covering episodes, chapters one through. Through four, this was supposed to be an anthology season.
So maybe Elle was supposed to be that character that showed up in other stories and maybe we were. This was supposed to be just like this was the Hawkins Indiana story and the next one would have been, I don't know, New York City or something.
And Elle would have popped up there. Something about her. But seems like they knew they were getting a second season at this point.
Paul:I'M glad. I'm glad they didn't go that route.
Paul:Honestly. Like, this. This feels like better just go on a journey with a whole group of people and continue on that journey throughout it all, you know?
Andrea:Yeah. So we should do our little poor one out. Even though I don't particularly care for the characters that died.
Paul:Oh, the random government agents. Are we talking about the. The government agents is who Report. All right, let's do it.
All right, let's pour one out for the random government agents that died and the Demogorgon.
Andrea:Listen, he's our first. I'm calling him Demi. He's our first.
Paul:All our fallen homies, yo. Don't let the change get respect, though.
Andrea:He made this whole story. Story happen.
Paul:I mean, we. Yeah, but we could have waited for the actual. For the other Demogorgon. We'll get to it. Season two.
Like, I mean, that Demogorgon has an actual bond with. With the team.
Paul:You know what I mean?
Andrea:Like, even though. No, no, no. Okay. I'm. I feel like we're gonna have different opinions about Dart. We'll talk about Darton Season 2, but absolutely not. Absolutely.
Paul:So you love your. Your team, Demi over Dart.
Andrea:Listen, dummy, in my opinion, dummy, Demi's right here in my background. Demi was just hungry. You know, he's just. He's just trying. He's trying to feed that hunger. I feel like he's mostly misunderstood.
Like, if they had left him some meat, you know, maybe things would have done. Gone differently, but, you know, I. I don't know.
Paul:Ate Barbara. He ate Barb.
Andrea:That's tough stuff. That's tough stuff. Tough, tough stuff. Okay, listen, I'm not saying he's my friend. I'm just saying we should acknowledge he was.
Paul:Acknowledged that he was our first. He was the first. He was the first. Okay. First Demogorgon. Let us know what's going on.
So, speaking of monsters, though, Lucas has an interesting take about living.
Andrea:Mm.
Paul:He. He says, did you ever stop to think that maybe she's the monster?
Paul:Like, she's the. The.
Paul:And it's a question that I think will come up multiple times. We love Elle, but at the same time, her powers and. And the fact that she's the impetus for all of this happening.
And she herself says, I'm the monster. I'm the monster. Later on, like, in when she saves. Saves Mike. Mike is like, no, you're not.
And he, like, refuses to see it, but she's acknowledging that she has played a part in all of this.
Paul:And what's transpiring that she does have some.
Paul:Some responsibility in how this is all started.
Andrea:I think that we learn Elle wants to be good, but she's been trained as, like, a weapon, and she has a hard time regulating her emotions, and she's done some horrible things up to this point. Right. But we'll see her do some questionable things later. I know. When we get to season two, we'll talk more about, you know, the notorious episode.
I think that's. That's chapter seven, where she meets Kali, her sister, but they do some bad stuff. Right.
And then season four, for me, the most shocking moment of the whole season was her clock in Old Girl with the roller skate. Elle sometimes loses that, and her powers could be. Can be used as a weapon. They can be used for bad. And it's something she has to grapple with.
And again in season two. So we'll talk more about this when it happens, but we see when her and Hopper have disagreements, how quickly it escalates to essentially, violence.
Imagine if Hopper is the one throwing stuff at Elle. Like, it kind of gets played as, like, not that big of a deal because she's the child, he's the adult. He has the power and that dynamic.
But Elle routinely takes out adults. So, yeah, I think it's definitely foreshadowing for the rest of Elle's arc, which is. And.
And to this day, the fan community is still not sure if El is a superhero or are we watching an. Or a villain origin story? Yeah, I tend to think that Ella is a complicated character. I think we can. I think we can have two heroes of the story. That.
That discussion tends to be like, is Will the hero or is Elle the hero? I think they can both be heroes. I think there's a lot of heroes in this group. I think Nancy and Jonathan are heroes. Joyce and Hopper are heroes.
Dustin is a hero. Steve is definitely a hero. Not everyone has to play villain, hero, or victim. They're all the. These are the hero of the. Our overall story. So I can't.
Paul:I tend to think, though, that, like, one of the things I was thinking.
Paul:About, as we've talked about before and then, like, talking about it now is I kind of feel that we often frame it where El is the stronger one, so she's coming to save the rest of them. Like, she will be able to fight the, you know, the Demogorgons in this case and later on the Mind Flayer and later on Vecna.
Paul:But there's a part of me that started as reflected watching the season is that.
Paul:And Reflecting in the context of this question is, is she the monster is thinking, well, their humanity and their. Their lived experience as a community is actually also saving her. It's actually making her less of a killer, of a weapon, of a.
Paul:She's becoming more of like them.
Paul:And so there's like. There's like this thing that I think we.
Paul:We often just think, well, she has.
Paul:Power, so she's the one that's saving them. But their humanity is doing the same and reflecting back to Elle. And I find that to be beautiful.
Andrea:This is absolutely a group project. This is. Elle on her own, would not have been able to do all of this.
And, you know, we'll talk more about Joyce and Terry and motherhood in this part of the story, but I don't even think El could have found Will and Barb without Joyce making sure that Elle felt safe to go into the void. I. I think that this is all a group project. And as much as I give Mike Wheeler a hard time, and I actually think Mike just gets.
Mike gets worse as you. The longer you watch the series, the worst Mike gets. Although Mike has season two is peak Mike, I think he. He's so good in season two, but Mike is.
We talked about, like, the music being a tether. Mike is kind of Elle and Will's tether to this community. He has is El's tethered to her humanity. He's not alone in that.
Hopper plays a similar role, but he. His being willing to stand up for both her and Will constantly is one of the things that gives her the resolve to go forward.
It's the reason that she makes this sacrifice. Right? She don't know these people. She has met the. It's been a week. Like, that's the funny thing about this first season. It feels so pivotal.
And we watch all these friendships form and we watch all these bonds really solidify, but it's only been a week.
Paul:It's crazy. It's crazy when you think about it in that context.
Paul:And it's also. I think it's also crazy to just.
Paul:Think about how all of these characters.
Paul:Like, fall into roles, like, fall into.
Paul:Roles that end up serving the way that they're seen throughout the rest of the series.
Paul:And what I'm thinking about when you.
Paul:Were talking about Mike is I'm thinking about the Wheelers in general. Like, Mike is kind of in this tug pull between what we would call, like, maybe the main two protagonists.
When you think about, you know, Will and you think about El.
Paul:But I also think that Nancy, it's.
Paul:Fascinating that she's also in this tug pull between Steve and Jonathan in this. In this particular season.
Paul:And kind of seeing how the Wheeler children, they have, like, this kind of.
Paul:Like, they're like, the nucleus of this whole thing.
Paul:And Mike, for that group of friends.
And also Nancy, when you start thinking about how it plays out for her, that without Nancy, they would all just be fighting the actual Hopper and them would be fighting the spy, doing spy.
Paul:Capers, and the kids would be fighting the monsters.
Paul:And, like, oh, we know all the lore and the mythology. But Nancy has this real knack, I think, of getting to the investigation of what's happening. Like, what is the cause, what's the.
Paul:Origin of all this?
Paul:Her investigation skills are gonna come in.
Paul:Handy for the group over and over and over again.
Paul:And there's a real bravery to her that I find just really captivating throughout this whole show.
Paul:To me, she's one of the.
Paul:To me, she's one of my favorite.
Paul:Characters, and she's one of the strongest characters.
Andrea:I love Nancy Wheeler. I have a funko pop of Nancy Wheeler that I got as a gift. I love. I think she's. She's great. The Wheeler kids are great. You know, I.
Even though I don't like Mike, listen. Karen Wheeler, because I don't believe Ted had anything to do with this.
She raised some of the most fiercely loyal and incredibly brave people in Hawkins, period. Nancy, isn't she. She does. She's like a dog with a bone. She does not let this Barb thing get away from her.
So I think that that's an incredibly important thing to remember, is that every single member. El's one of the powers, right?
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:But every single member of this group plays a role, even down to Steve, who I guess Steve's role is to be the one who puts himself in front of danger. Right.
And we see that first here in this scene at the end of the series where he shows up to apologize to Jonathan because he's thought about what a he's been. And then the Demogorgon shows up, and Steve is like, I'm not leaving. Like, I got. I got y'. All. I'm not gonna let you fight this monster alone.
If that were me, I don't know what y' all summoned. I don't.
Paul:But that him going off on his own, I think there's some safety in.
Paul:That, too, because him going off on his own, he might have got just.
Paul:Murked out in the middle of the night. That would have been it.
Andrea:That's a good Point. That's fair.
Paul:Stay in the numbers. Like, you know, like, hey, let's go. Oh, man. And I think, you know, another person who plays a pivotal role is Mr. Clark. I think constantly.
Andrea:I love that they just. They just make Mr. Clark, at least in the first two seasons, maybe even the third. The third. He. Oh, yeah, no, he's.
He's the one who tells Joyce about the magnets in that they're. He's just a constant beacon of information.
Paul:Right, right.
Paul:And that. And. And that he. He created a space that they trust him because it's a space that they can go to from the radio to all.
All the knowledge that they gain from him. And I love his ability to talk to them about alternate dimensions using, you know, like, really looking at how you could draw, like it.
Using a tightrope and an acrobat and how it looks.
Paul:And it helped. I think it helps the viewer. It helped me to be able to not think of it as, like. It was interesting because I normally, when.
Paul:I thought about alternate dimension, we think about the multiverse and other things we've seen.
Paul:I think about it almost as, like, parallel worlds where think the exact same.
Paul:Thing is happening, but in different ways because it's a different reality.
Paul:He kind of by. By describing it as a tightrope and.
Paul:Then showing that the acrobat can only move forward or backwards, one straight path.
Paul:It kind of reset my understanding of how parallel worlds work in this world.
Paul:Versus, like, multiverses, the way we've often heard. And I love how he's able to do that and also help us as an audience.
Andrea:Yeah. I also came back to this with kind of my Loki understanding of the multiverse and the timelines.
And Marvel has really been the space where we think about multiverses. Right. And even though this came out first and so. Well, not came out first, but like, the.
The idea of different dimensions was used in this story before we really got into the multiverse in the mcu. I love this explanation. Right. So, like, in this, he's talking to the kids. Well, they're the acrobats. Right. They can only move forward.
But the Demogorgon or Elle a little bit, because El can only psychically visit other places. Right. She can't physically, but the Demogorgon is able to kind of weave in and out.
And I think that's how we're supposed to understand Vecna, that he is able to weave in and out of maybe even time. I'm not sure that Vecna can't move in and out of time as well. That's a whole other. We can we get to that season?
Paul:I mean, we. The clock is such a central part of it, and we hear the clock. I did not get the clock in season one until I went back and rewatched.
You hear the clock when he's showing. You hear it early. Like, it's like, whoa.
Andrea:The clock is definitely in the scene where Will goes missing.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:Which I did not notice even upon my first re watch. It was my third go with that episode that I. I was like, oh, that's the clock. And I think that's because I had list.
I had watched the first few episodes re. Watched the first few episodes of season four, and I was back in that space. So I love this idea. I think this is going to come back as well.
I think that when they draw from season. From earlier seasons to.
To build this last season 5, my guess is we're going to see a lot of callbacks to the OG I think in terms of Magical Rules, season two is the most important season. But in terms of, like, the things that call us back, we're going to see so much of season one.
Paul:Yeah. I would agree.
Paul:So.
Paul:So I would.
Paul:So let's talk about chapter six.
Paul:And we've been talking a lot about.
Paul:Chapter five, and we mentioned earlier, so L. In the.
Paul:In the summary. So L admits to creating the gate.
Paul:Right. So what do you think? Like, what do you think the.
Paul:The ramifications of that are, like, as to, like.
Paul:I mean, we find out later on.
Paul:Obviously, in four, what the circumstances were around her closing the gate, why she did it, what was happening at the moment when it happened.
Paul:But why do you think that it's.
Paul:So important about her close, like, opening the gate and also eventually having to close it?
Andrea:I think Elle has a lot of guilt about bringing the bad people, the monsters into the lives of her family. You know, I think that El was in survival mode when she was in the lab because that's all she knew. Right.
And I think now that we know that Elle had been one of. I think the only survivor of one, AKA Henry Creel, AKA Vecna's massacre.
And the reason I say I think that she's the only survivor is because I. I watched several times looking for her sister from season two. She's not in that scene in season four, so I think she escaped before. Before that. Yeah.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:I don't know how she would have done that. She was a little bit like, they're so young, they're babies, but.
Paul:Right.
Andrea:I Don't know. I don't know how she got, we don't really know how she got out.
And so to know that she bought this into the world, that, that we, we also have the context, which the group doesn't have, that a lot of people died in that lab.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:That night.
And Elle knows that she's responsible for all of it because she knows about that moment, that she made a connection to this monster and it ripped through the, the, like the veil between the two worlds. And then it's a veil that now the, the bad side can come and go as they please. You know, they can jump in.
So I think, and I think that Elle, similar to Will later, feels just so much guilt about her role in this whole first scene season and everything that's happened since then.
And I think it's a character defining the way that Hopper feels guilt about something he absolutely could not have prevented, which was the death of his daughter. I think El feels the same way, even though she was 12 years old, being forced and held against her will to do this thing.
So I think, I just think it's one of those character defining moments for her, opening the gate. And I still have questions. Did she open the gate?
Paul:There you go.
Andrea:No, I know I did not make my tinfoil hat yet, but yeah, if, if we're to assume that Vecna has always been kind of lurking in the background. Did L open it? Was, was Henry looking for a vulnerability? Did he send that Demogorgon to, for L to see?
Like, how much of this is, it was accidental and how much of this was. And him being opportunistic and how much of it was planned? And like I said, the thing with the clock that can he move through time?
Those are all legitimate questions because, Yeah, I, I, we just don't know yet. And maybe some of this is like we're two in the weeds and the duffers are like, we are. We're telling a story with five layers, not 10.
You guys, you need, guys need to meet us back on layer five. But we still have a lot of questions.
Paul:But I also think, like, that's, that's part of the joy of these kind.
Paul:Of shows is like taking it apart in that way. And.
Paul:Yeah, I'm with you.
Paul:Like, I've often questioned that. Did she open it? Was this a trap and then the timepiece?
Paul:You know, I hope it's not this. We've talked about it.
Paul:We'll talk about it more.
Paul:I hope it's not that Vecna can.
Paul:Manipulate time and, and Go back and forth, like, through all the.
Paul:Like, like, almost like we used to.
Paul:Think that Game of Thrones, you know, like, maybe, you know, Bran was able to. It was like a time loop.
Paul:And I'm hoping that's not the case when the books get done or whatever either. But I, I'm glad it wasn't that.
Paul:Way in the show, so to speak.
Paul:That it wasn't a time loop. And I think, like, it puts me in the mind.
Paul:We talk about the mcu, like, we say, oh, well, you know, how people mess with time.
And this idea that Vecna can manipulate time or come back and forth, and maybe he's seen this play out multiple times and he's trying to actually come out on the better end of it in this, this instance that we're witnessing now.
Paul:I hope that's not the story that's.
Paul:Being told, but I do think that it's a possibility. I do think it's a possibility that he's able to, you know, have seen these things play out multiple times and try to.
Yeah, really try his best to try to see if this way he could, he could have set the trap for Elle to do exactly what she did.
Andrea:Yeah.
I think if we're going to have some element of manipulation of time, I just hope that it serves the plot more than it serves the writing of the story. Right. I'm okay with time stuff, but it's tricky.
And if it's done just so that they can explain stuff that they weren't planning from the beginning, I hope that doesn't happen. So we'll see. I, I think that. I think that there's ways that they can go back and explain a few things using Vecna that don't, don't need time travel.
There's going to be unanswered questions in this story. They've. They've left too many strings to be played hold at, so that's fine. I don't mind. That's cool.
I'm always okay with the fans being able to kind of write their own theories. That's.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:All good stories are left up to interpretation.
Paul:I love that. I love that, too.
Paul:I really like this, this journey for.
Paul:With Joyce and Hopper, for them to find Elle's mom. I, I, you know, it's important. Sets up what happens next Season two for Luke.
But I think it's also important because it's like, it mirrors what Joyce is currently going through. It's, it's. She's very concerned that, oh, man, what if I never see my Kid again.
You know, Terry never, from what we've seen up to this point, hasn't seen Elle again. And she's gone through immense amounts of trauma.
So I think it's like one of those things that seeing it, you're kind of like, oh, wow, like, what happened? Like, there's more to this story than we even know, which is cool. The onion's being peeled back even more.
Paul:But it's also, like, I think for.
Paul:The character, for Joyce, it's kind of like this thing that maybe stiffens her resolve of, like, okay, I'm not gonna let them put me into that place.
Paul:Because, remember, we're fresh off of people thinking she's pretty, she's losing her mind.
Paul:And that she's making all this up.
Paul:And that this is not possible.
Paul:So she's seen this person who's kind of been neutralized by the people who she thinks were trying to make her look crazy and even staged the death of her kid. Like, staged it, like, legit, like.
Paul:Right.
Paul:So I think, like, it's a. It's an interesting mirror for her, and.
Paul:I think really shows you how resilient Joyce is, because that would have. That could have been a moment that's.
Paul:Just like, oh, my God, I have no hope. Like this. This person is, like, sitting here like this. Maybe I'll never find them.
And the fact that she keeps going, obviously, with some encouraging from Hopper and Hop, is great. You know, I think.
Andrea:Yeah. I think Terry and Hopper are mirrors to Joyce. Right?
Because these are two people who got their children ripped away from them, and there's nothing they can do about it. Right. Terry is trapped. And what we will find out in season two, a loop. And Hopper is in everyone's worst nightmare. He lost his child.
He had to bury his daughter, and he also lost his marriage. And I think that Joyce is seeing in that moment a mother first and foremost, who was powerless to protect her child. And she refuses to.
She absolutely refuses. She's, like, not going to be me. And I don't mean. I. I don't mean to say that Joyce is being judgmental.
I think she has empathy, but she's like, I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure that this doesn't happen to my baby. Because at that point, too, we don't really know what happened. She doesn't really know what happened to Will. Right. We have a sense, right?
But she might be thinking, the lab kidnapped him. The lab took him there the same way that they took out.
I think she's at that point, just like, I'm not gonna let this happen with a great deal of empathy.
And I have to say, it all, to me, ties back later to the significant love and kindness that she shows to El, who, of course, she wants El to find Will, But I didn't get the sense that that's the only reason she's telling her, you're a brave girl. I'll be right here. Really guiding her through the void in a loving. In contrast to Papa. The way that he's like, yeah, touch the Democrat. Like, it's.
It's. It's so different. He's like, do this thing you don't want to do for reasons, essentially telling her that the thing is coming for her anyway.
She might as well catch up to it.
Paul:My gosh.
Andrea:And then to have Joyce, who has everything, writing on whether or not Elle can locate. Well, so kind. If it gets scary in there, let us come back. Let us know. You know, it's just.
It's beautiful because I. I think she feels a real kinship with Terry. And then she also extends that to Terry's little girl.
Paul:Yeah, 100%. I mean, Joyce, Another one of my faves. Like, she's. Yeah, she's. I mean, come on. Yeah, she's. She.
Paul:That's.
Paul:Those are great moments between her and Elle, and I agree with you. It really shows a lot about her character. And I. You know.
Paul:I think that, you know, all of these people are on a similar voyage to Dustin.
Paul:It's a curiosity journey. You know, It's a curiosity voyage.
Paul:They're just. They're just. They're trying to figure it out, man. Like, you know, so what did you think? You know, like. Like, I just.
I want to say that it wasn't an experiment. It was an experiment. I kind of like that they. That the experiment worked out.
Joyce in that moment, Joyce showing her that compassion, sending her into the void, and really, like, standing next to her, sitting next to her, as she's, like, telling her, like, when she saw Barb, and she's, like, freaked out. She's telling her. And to see Joyce comforting her, even though she doesn't know what the hell she's seen. I thought it was phenomenal.
Paul:I think all of it's phenomenal, but wonderful, wonderful seeing this curiosity voyage of ELs and the whole team play out.
Andrea:Dustin is just such. Can we just take a second and, like, acknowledge that Dustin is one of the best written characters in this whole thing? He is so funny.
He has all of the qualities of Mike in terms of being loyal but he is also so funny and so smart, and he is a problem solver. Every time they have, like, an unsolvable problem, Justin's like, dustin is like, I got this. Let me. Let me figure this out. I love.
Again, this is several. Two seasons away, but him and Robin.
Paul:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andrea:Just perfect.
Paul:A little.
Andrea:A little of, like, Dustin's problem solving, a little of her reasoning, a little of Erica's sass. We got.
Paul:I love it.
Andrea:It's great.
Paul:And then they. And then it is so funny because he's.
Paul:He's, like, trolling freaking Steve. We'll get there.
Paul:About, like, how do you not see how awesome this girl is? Like, what's wrong with you?
Paul:So great. I love them. I love them, too.
Paul:So, yeah, I think that, you know, the season closes out with, you know, them finding Will. I'm seeing that, you know, it was tough for Hopper.
Paul:Like, Hopper, like, was really flashing back when he was reviving El.
Paul:I mean, reviving Will.
Paul:You know, Hopper's really flashing back reviving Will.
Paul:And I think it's, man, it's. Man, it's tough. It's tough. But he still fights to it. I mean, this was bravery because they.
Paul:Didn'T know what the hell they were walking into.
Paul:They had no idea what this place could do. They've seen people die.
Paul:It was so brave of both of them.
Paul:And Will legit is almost gone. He is gone, and he gets revived, and it's like, he won't give up. I thought he was gonna break the kid's chest in half. He was like, he's pumping.
He's like, I'm gonna make. He's.
Paul:You are going to survive. And, yeah.
Paul:It'S dramatic, but it's also emotional. And it's just a great, well acted.
Paul:Scene, but also just great for the story to really understand what the stakes are for not only Will and not only Joyce, but also what it means for Hopper to be there for this family 100%.
Andrea:It's such a hard scene to watch because it's so emotional and well done. And they've been leaving us a little hint about Sarah in her last years. Right. All along.
So to tie it all back in, in that pivotal moment where Hopper really just doesn't want to lose another kid. Right? It's. It's not even. He doesn't even know Will that much. It's just like, this can't be happening to another parent. I can't let this happen.
I'm gonna do everything I can to fight it in the way it's cut together. I was not expecting to be so emotional when I rewatched it. I totally forgot about this scene, by the way. Totally forgot about it.
I had no memory of the cuts back and forth between him losing Sarah. I knew that happened in the season. I just didn't link it to him saving Will. And I was really surprised at how effective it was.
And again, this entire season is really about establishing relationships and character arcs in a way that I. I think some of them got a little bit dropped. Right. I think this. The Sarah thing later isn't really emphasized as much, but I. I think that it's really well done. And I was a mess.
We're just gonna be honest. There was tears. There was probably some snot. It was. It was ugly.
Paul:I. I was. Yeah, it was. It was. It was.
Paul:It was emotional for sure.
Paul:And it.
Paul:And even ending on a good note, as we said, you know, that there's still something lurking with just the fact that L, you know, is hiding in the woods. Will still is got, you know, parts of the upside down, like a slug like that he's spitting out, like we started with.
But I also think, you know, what we leave with the sense of is chosen family. Like these multiple people that have just like, chosen to be there for each other.
And I think for me as a viewer, why I feel so emotional is because we have also chosen to be part of this family. We've chosen to be like, in it with them.
And when a story can do that for you, it's just the ride, especially this early in the telling of all the story they still have left. It's a ride that you don't want.
Paul:To let go of.
Paul:I think that's why people are so.
Paul:Like, when's it coming back? Where is it? What? You know, you know, why is it so long in between? These kids are growing up, they got mortgages, they got kids, they got whatever.
It's because we care. We care because it's.
Paul:It's. We all chose all these years ago to join this family and to join the party, and the party matters to us. And I think, like, that's.
That's the strength of. Of this whole show. Besides the nostalgia and everything else, it speaks to us on a really visceral level of family community.
What can happen when you choose to connect with. With each other in that kind of way? And there it kind of ripples out to the whole fan community because we all have made that same choice.
Andrea:Absolutely. I think with any fantasy or any sci fi, the characters have to be worth it or otherwise, things just become plot.
And I'll use another story as an example, but it's another Netflix property. And the book that Three Body Problem is based on is essentially plot. It's essentially plot and science. Right.
The characters aren't really constant through that series, and we don't get a lot of insight to who they are as people. It's more about what they're experiencing in this moment.
Yeah, well, when, you know, Dave and Dan decided that they were gonna adapt it, they made some adaptive choices that we talked about extensively when we covered it, which is to create this group of friends. And through that group of friends, they would experience all the same things that the characters in the book experience. But.
Paul:Whoa.
Paul:I want to go on record. Are we giving Dave and Dan props for making positive adjustments to a story?
Andrea:We did it when we podcasted it.
Paul:Yes, we did. Okay, good, good, good. They're good at this. They're good at that. Even though I. We drag them about the end of Thrones. But go ahead.
I'm sorry, continue. I just wanted to make sure.
Andrea:Yeah, I mean, I think that this is a story that could have fallen. Not this story, Stranger Things 3. But I'm still talking about three body problems. Could have fallen really flat and gotten into. It's interesting.
The book is interesting from its concepts, but when you're adapting something for television, you have to hook the audience and they have to come back for something more interesting.
Paul:Right.
Andrea:Than just high minded sci fi concepts. And I think that they've done a good job on this show, even though it's not a high. You know, this is not like foundation or Three Body Problems.
This is a story about families and kids and a group of characters that we love so much. And I think they've done a tremendous job of making us really invested and also of.
We don't see it that much in this season, but in future seasons of pairing them up or grouping them up in new and interesting ways so that everyone has something to do. So I'm curious about where season five is going to be with that, because I think there's an element of the.
I'd like to see as much of the group together as possible, but the cast has gotten so large. And in this season, Elle is a new addition. Right. She's the new member of the party.
But the party grows more and larger and larger each season, which is incredible. The world gets bigger, but so do the characters that we love. And this is kind of their origin story.
They all have backstories Right before we met them in this moment, I actually think. I actually hope we get more of Wills, but the play, which I won't spoil, gives us more of the adult's backstory as well.
So they all have this moment, but they all have stories before this. But yet this moment that brings them to this critical finale is sort of the origin of what we see for the rest of the series.
I think that's really well done, and I think that's what hooked people. I remember the anticipation for season two was wild. People were like, couldn't wait.
You know, I think because it's taken so long, season four was a little bit like, oh, we're still doing this, and season five, people are starting to get hyped again. But I feel like have been like, the story's still on, but for season two, the people were frenzied about seeing where the story went next.
And I think it's not because of the monsters. It's not because of the nostalgia. It's absolutely because of the relationships and the characters that were built out of season one.
Paul:Totally agree. I completely agree. And I think. I think there's very few shows that group people as well as they have. I think if I had to give, like.
And I wasn't a fan, I wasn't a fan. Not because I didn't like it, but I just never really got into it.
I think from what you've explained to me, I think the Walking Dead did it really well of, like, grouping people. No. Okay.
Andrea:They started out okay. They started out strong. Things got little. A little rough as the season went on.
Paul:What I think.
Paul:I think the show that I know did it well, and it's actually their problem was bringing people back together when. Which I'm wondering how that's gonna happen. For Stranger Things, which is why I bring it up, was Thrones.
I thought Thrones got people into groups in a way that you were happy that those people were together. Having those journey, like one that comes to mind is definitely, you know, the Hound and Arya.
You're like, oh, my gosh, this is the perfect pairing, or different parties that ended up together. The problem became, well, how do you get everybody back into the same place?
And I think the beauty in those stories where people break up into these factions to attack the same problem from different vantage points and giving people something to do is that it normally starts out for me anyway. It starts out with everybody in the same place. And we start out in this show pretty much everybody.
The people who are the core members of the party are in that Dungeons and Dragons game campaign, like, and. And that's it.
Paul:And then it expands periodically over time.
Paul:And then you end. But you start with people who are, like, in the same place, essentially.
Paul:Like the one. The one kind of like, caveat to that was, I think, season three.
Paul:Every.
Paul:This is what's interesting about how they brought them together. People are kind of in the same place. You know, the party's kind of together, but Dustin's just coming home and Steve.
Andrea:Is just like, huh, no, season three. You know how I feel about that season in terms of splitting up our groups, you know? Yeah, but we get new groups, right?
Paul:We get new groups.
Andrea:We get new groups. So even though I was salty, like, the whole season, like the whole season, I'm like, I don't want this. Just like Max and Elle, I don't want this.
Steve separated from everybody else. And then Dustin and Erica join Steve and Robin. It works out in the end. But, I mean, the. The ongoing Steve and Dustin relationship has got.
I'll take it. Right. I just love those two. Those two are just perfect together. So. But I think you're entirely right. They do pairings very well.
And a lot of the Thrones pairings are in the source material, but not all of them. And. And so here we are.
Paul:Yeah, I agree.
Andrea:Complimenting Dave and Dan again.
Paul:Again. I know it's twice. It's twice in one pod. What is happening? What is happening? See time with time, all things, all wounds heal.
Paul:But we talked a little bit about what we think. We'll talk about what we learned.
Paul:But I think a good thing to kind of think about is what are some of the things that we've seen now that we will lead us to think about predictions we may have for season five. Since we've been talking about the anticipation for season five, let's maybe talk about that. So one of the.
One of the things that I. I think we've spoken a lot about offline.
Paul:Is that Will kind of feels like.
Paul:The key to the Upside Down. Like, he. He kind of feels like in these first.
Paul:In these first chapters, like, he's stuck between world two worlds, literally. But he's one of. I mean, he's alive and he's trapped.
Paul:Normally, people don't live when they get.
Paul:To the Upside Down. Like, up to this point in the story, he communicates. He's able to communicate through lights, he's able to communicate through music.
He's able to use psychic signals. It just feels like he has a.
Paul:Connection to the Upside down and a Reason why he was the one who snapped into the. Into the Upside down in the beginning of the story when he disappeared.
Paul:There's more to it than just like.
Paul:Well, he was just abducted. I think, like, there's a. The isolation suggests that there's a unique connection. What do you think?
Andrea:I think there's a really good chance that Will was chosen.
Paul:Yeah, that.
Andrea:Yeah, I think there's a really good chance that Will is special. Maybe he has an ability to communicate across dimensions, which will be particularly useful to Vecna.
Maybe he has some other powers that haven't been revealed yet. But I do feel like there's a strong possibility here that Will was targeted.
Not that had Dustin or Lucas taken that turn, they would have been picked up as well. I'm not. I don't. I don't know if that's true. It. You know, it could come down. Here's the thing.
They've written this so that it could come down to coincidence. Maybe Will, because he lives so close to the lab. And the Demogorgon had just escaped. The lab was an easy target. Or maybe Will is special.
And maybe that specialness is proximity to the lab. Right. That specialness could be just the part of the reason. Could be that Will.
They live on essentially the same road as the lab is, I think, as far as we know. And maybe the lab was doing something and like we see in, I think, season three, or maybe it's season two. But we see that, like, things.
The lab makes decisions and it affects all of Hawkins. When we see the. The crops and all of that stuff that.
Paul:Yeah, that's two. That's.
Andrea:It could be that he was affected by something in the lab. I don't think that's a story they're telling, but I think it's possible. Or it could be that Will is a special, sensitive kid.
A word that Joyce uses about him in the very first episode, that he is sensitive. That sensitivity could be something that is actually more than just like a kid who's a little bit quieter than the others and is bullied.
It could mean that he is. He is more attuned to the areas where the. Like, the veil between worlds is weaker. So I don't. But I think.
I think there's a good chance that Will was chosen and not. It wasn't just an accident.
Paul:I agree. And I think, like, that word sensitive is really interesting that she chooses that word to describe him.
Because we see over time that his ability is to. He can feel when any of the characters. Vecna, the mind Flayer, he can feel when they're close. He can feel when it's back. He has a sense that.
Paul:So sensitivity.
Andrea:Not even that. Like, I have to go back and watch this in season three. But he seems to know when Billy is kind of traveling between dimensions.
I don't know if that's what's quite happening in season three, but you know what I mean? There's that point where El is in a trance and Will is like, things are getting bad, like, we gotta go. So he has. He definitely has a sensitivity.
Paul:Mm, Agreed. Agreed.
Paul:So what do you think? About what? What are your predictions for the Shadow.
Paul:Monster and the Vecna link? Like, what do you think happens there?
Andrea:I haven't quite figured this out. I'm really struggling with this.
So do you think that Vecna is the Mind Flayer or that Vecna is a Big Bad and the Mind Flayer is one of Vecna's generals, or do you think it's the other way around? Or do you. Like, what are. How have you experienced this?
Paul:From the reading I've done offline, just kind of like online, just reading it. My theory is that Vecna is not the Big Bad. My theory is that there's a bigger bad than Vecna and that Vecna actually, it's going to be interesting.
I think they're going to turn things on.
My prediction for season five is they're going to turn things on his head and everybody's going to come into this season thinking that Vecna's who needs to be done, and they're going to vanquish him pretty fast. And it's going to be a new Big Bad because there is in Dungeons and Dragons, from my understanding, a bigger bad than. Than Vecna.
And all of these people are that person's. They're like, they're. They're soldiers. So similar to, like, you know, to lack of a better term.
In Lord of the Rings, there's all these different orcs and like, you go further, further, further. You play the video game, you know, and all that, Shadows of Mordor and all that, you constantly think, oh, I.
Paul:Killed these orcs, and that's it.
Paul:And then it's like there's another one that's bigger and worse.
Paul:Right. So I think, like, that's. That's what I'm anticipating, is that all.
Paul:Of these are one up, one up.
Paul:What my further prediction is.
Paul:Is that the bigger bad actually ends up being someone who's intimately connected to one of the Kids. That's my. That's my.
Paul:Like, that bigger thing is the psyche.
Paul:Of one of the kids, whether that be El or whether that be Will.
Paul:I don't know which one yet.
Paul:But that's my. That's my theory going into it.
Paul:And they will be forced to figure.
Paul:Out how to deal with one of the kids.
And it will be the biggest challenge because it will be revealed, like, in a way where, wow, now we have to, like, take out one of our friends because this person has actually been the person that subconsciously has been pulling the strings the whole time.
Paul:So maybe totally wrong.
Andrea:Yeah, I mean, we. We're speculating. We haven't seen season five, so we don't know. Yeah, I would say I'm. I don't. I. I agree with you. Everything you just said about.
Well, not necessarily. I don't necessarily agree with the last part about the psyche being one of the kids, but I do think that Vecna may be a soldier. The only thing.
Okay, I feel of two minds about this. Again, I don't want to. I'm not going to spoil the play, but if he's just a foot soldier, then why do we have a whole play about him? You know, like.
season, you know, in the. In:She wasn't the one who set him off. Like, something happened, and I don't think it was just his relationship with his parents. Something made Henry Creel bad.
And so I'm a little bit worried that it's going to be hard not to draw comparisons to a series we don't really like to talk about on this podcast. But I'm a little concerned that they're gonna vanquish Vecna in episode three.
Or maybe Vecna redeems himself like every other villain on this show ever has. I mean, Steve was essentially our first antagonist. He redeems himself by the end of the season. Billy was our second antagonist.
He redeems himself by the. You know, in his death in season three. So I'm a little worried that something like that's gonna happen. And then it's like, we destroyed Vecna, but.
But it. The Mind Flayer isn't fully destroyed. Like, now we have to maybe destroy. Well, I'm a little concerned we get into a Horcrux situation, but I'm.
I think it's I think it's all up. It's all possible based on what they.
Paul:Keep showing us that based on what.
Andrea:We'Ve seen so far. There's one thing that I'm so excited to see season five is that there's so many different directions this could take.
This could take a totally straightforward direction. Vecna is the final boss. The kids gotta pull together and figure out what his weakness is. And maybe it.
What it will come down to is Max, I think, is kind of lost in his world. If they destroy Vecna, does Max. Do they destroy Max? Right? It could. That could. That would be the most straightforward story.
But given that there's been all this anticipation for how long the episodes are, I'm like, yay. And tell them the most straightforward story we're going to get. We're going to get some other shockers that we're going to be like, what?
And then when we look back, we're going to be like, oh, yeah, that was kind of telegraphed in season two or season three or season one. So I'm. I would.
I think that Vecna being the Big bad is the most logical thing, but I don't necessarily think that this is the story that they're telling, so we'll see.
Paul:I don't think so either. And I think. I think, like, one of, you know, the. The show in the series that will not be named thanks to its creator.
Also about a character that will not be named, one of the things that I think made that easier to swallow with some of the things that happened later in that is the same thing that will make it easier for one of these kids to be the why I'm going to. My theory is if they were still kids, it'd be harder to like them to have to make those kind of choices.
But now that they're older, it's gonna feel less like, oh, we can't make that kind of choice.
Paul:Like, somebody.
Paul:Not everybody's getting out of this thing alive and not.
Paul:And some sacrifice will have to be made.
Paul:And in season four, as we'll talk about later, it feels like, I don't know, man. Will feels on the board, like, to me, like, honestly, like Will does and so does El.
Andrea:Both Will and Al, we've talked about this ad nauseam. At this point, we both feel like those are the two that we worry about the most. I have consulted the Internet multiple times.
Most people are worried about Steve.
And I just wonder if that's because Steve is a beloved character or because Steve was supposed to die in season one or because Steve is a dude who puts himself between whatever danger is there and whoever is behind it. I mean, we're going to talk about season two in the future, but Steve is incredibly brave in season two.
Paul:Positive theory.
Paul:I'll posit a theory about that. I think it can be. I think it can be Steve also.
I think that because Steve has been the one who stood in the void, like, stood in the way of the kids having danger, being in danger, and has saved them multiple times when almost like in a chaperone kind of thing, I could see Steve trying to stand in the way of someone hurting them and then it being revealed that one. But unknowingly not knowing that one of these two is actually the one who's been orchestrating this whole thing.
I could see a turn like that where it's like, oh, Steve's trying to save the day. Like, he would always save the day. And then it's in. Will surprises him, and he's like, holy crap.
Or Elle does something that harms him accidentally, and everybody's like, oh, crap. What happened?
Paul:There's a.
Paul:Or maybe neither one of them, but just Steve ends up going down. But my.
Paul:My theory is that Steve.
Paul:Will.
Paul:It's very possible Steve dies, but it's not in the same way that I'm.
Paul:Thinking that they will lose Ellen or Will. It's like that loss will be end game. Steve's will be to save them on the way that.
Andrea:Yeah. Yeah. I just want to say I don't think Will is evil. I think.
I think it's possible that unknowingly, Will is affecting things, but I think Will is ultimately a good person. I got to tell y'. All. L. The jury is still out. I'm just.
Paul:Yeah, yeah.
Paul:No, no, no.
Paul:I'm with you.
Paul:I'm with you on that. But I don't know that I wouldn't call Will Will evil. I would call Will conflicted. I would call the fact that Will has always wanted. He has a.
There's something that he's always had a.
Paul:Struggle with throughout the whole show that makes me feel like it's more connected to time.
Paul:He has always wanted things to stay.
Paul:The way that they were.
Paul:He's grasping to why are we changing? Why aren't things the way they used to be? Why? He has a very hard time with.
Paul:Time moving forward, which makes me feel.
Paul:Like, as a character, he is afraid.
Paul:Of what's going to happen when they get to their final destination.
Andrea:And I definitely could see that, because what if the best day of Will's life up until this point was the day he went missing. Right? 10 hour DND campaign with his best friends in the whole world, right?
What if that day was so wonderful and then it went totally wrong and that's why the Upside down is stuck on that day. There's other. There could be other explanations for why the Upside down is stuck on that day.
Could be that that's also the day that Elle touched the Demogorgon, right? And open the gate. It could be a lot of reasons.
But the fact that the Upside down is stuck on the day that Will went missing seems a really important detail that they only gave to us in season four. Season four and season five were written together, so makes me think that, yeah, it's more connected. It's not just connected to the accident.
The potential accident we said earlier may not have been an accident that Elle touched the Demogorgon at that time, but it could be. I don't think it was that. It was just that El opened the gate on that day. I think there's a.
Might be a more significant explanation for why we're stuck on in the Upside down on that particular day.
Paul:I agree. I totally agree.
Paul:So let's talk about a little bit, like to close things out, let's talk about what we learned. We kind of already talked about the Flea and the Acrobat piece.
Paul:So we know how they're describing. We learned how they describe parallel universes. Gives us a good kind of like base of that.
Paul:I want to talk about.
Paul:I mean, Terry Ives being part of MK Ultra.
Paul:I think this is an interesting thing.
Paul: rogram. It ran from the early: Paul:And its purpose was to explore mind control, brainwashing, interrogation techniques.
Paul:It was done during the Cold War.
Paul:We have a lot of Cold War references and there was a lot of the researchers used psychedelics.
Paul:So there's a lot of psychedelics like.
Paul:Lsd, hypnosis, sensory deprivation, electroshock therapy, and a lot of other methods to test.
Paul:How people's minds could be influenced and. Or broken. So fascinating that they bring this in. The Duffer brothers. They must have. They did their research.
Many participants never gave informed consent. So a lot of people didn't know that they were. They were part of this, this experiment, including some of the psychiatric patients, prisoners.
Sometimes the. The general public didn't know and the.
Paul:Program was classified, highly classified, and only.
Paul: ocumentation was destroyed in:Now let me tell you why I find that fascinating based on what we're talking about earlier with Will and him living closer to the labs, is that sometimes they were testing, they throwing K Ultra out there. So they were testing on the general public.
Paul:And we know what happens to everybody in the.
Paul:So many people in the general public.
Paul:But I kind of have had this.
Paul:Theory that I've said to you before that if L is the experiment, then Will could be the control group.
Paul:And I always kind of go off.
Paul:Of that theory in my brain of.
Paul:Like there's nothing in the show that would indicate that.
Paul:But just thinking about this experiment of MK Ultra, how they would do certain things to see, okay, is this working?
And then introduce it to the public based on what you can read about online, you're like, oh, it's possible to have these control and experimental groups like that.
Andrea:I totally agree. That's possible. I mean this is what I was talking about before the spillover from the lab.
We don't really know if that's the thing that makes Will special. And maybe it's there. Maybe that's just like a one time thing, right? Maybe it's just when the vines or whatever infect the crops or the spores get.
But I'm the reason I think this is worth thinking through because maybe the, maybe the, the control in the experience experiment or the placebo group and the in group. Maybe, maybe it's actually Joyce and Terry, right? Because remember, Terry didn't know she was pregnant when she joined the experiment.
What if there was some kind of spillover from the lab, from proximity to the lab that also affected Joyce. We don't, we just don't know. I. I think I'm kind of disturbed by some.
I've seen some chatter about who else father could be online and I'm a little concerned about the possibility that Henry could be Elle's father. Like Henry and Terry would have been in as part of the experiment at the same time. And there are other things that are concerning too.
But I think if Will has powers, they have to explain where they came from, right? Because they've posited that Els came from this ex. From her mom being part of NK Ultra.
So if Will also has powers and this is not a story that is as I, I'll never forget when one of the writers said, said this is not a fantasy, this is a science fiction story, then they have to have an explanation for why Will is special. And that why Will is special has to either be rooted in who? Joyce. In Joyce, or it has to be rooted in Lonnie.
Or something had had to happen to Will that didn't happen.
Paul:Damn sure ain't Lonnie.
Paul:It damn sure ain't Lonnie. Let's just throw Lonnie out.
Paul:That's a theory.
Paul:Let's not like, listen, I don't know.
Andrea:Lonnie looked like he did some drugs in the 70s, though.
Paul:He definitely did some drugs in the 70s, that's for sure. No question about it. It's possible. Maybe that's why he checked out.
Andrea:They're 12ish at the beginning of this, right? So they would have been born in 69. 7. Okay, all right. 60. 71. All right, so, but we'll see. I. I don't know. That's the beauty of this.
We're just speculating. All of this could be shot down, right?
But I think that if they're gonna give Will powers, if that's true, if, if all the fan theories about that is true, they have to give a reason for why he has them, right?
Paul:As powers, for sure.
Paul:And I mean, and what we know so far, what we've learned so far.
Paul:Is that he's changed, right, since he's come to out of the Upside down, that it's not a clean ending. We know, we. We've talked about a few times on this, on this episode of the podcast that, you know, he's. He's spitting out slugs.
He's definitely, like, able to see into the other world just standing in front of his. In front of his sink. So we know that Will is changed, right, like from the end of it. And we also learned obviously, that Elle opened the gate.
We've gone through that quite a bit, and it's fascinating how she opened the gate. We'll learn more about what that means later on as we go through everyone who's watched it. But we know that she has.
That that was something that she did.
Paul:And I guess, you know, we draw a distinction. We learned a little bit of the distinction in this season about the Void.
Paul:Versus the Upside down, you know, like that, that. That El is able to access parts of what's happening in the Upside down by entering into the Void and travel into different spaces and time.
There's like an in between world, which is what. Which is really interesting, I guess, if I was. If I'm going by the way that the, the parallel world was Described right. In Mr. Clark's explanation.
The void is the rope. The void is the actual rope. Like it is the tightrope.
Paul:It's like that's the way I'm experiencing it.
Paul:Is that like there's two sides to that rope and the void is that in between place. But that's kind of what we see that she's able to enter into.
Andrea:Yeah, I think that some people, when I speak to people about the show, people are a little confused about the void and the Upside Down. And then there's also where Max gets caught in season four, which we think might be a new dimension. I think it's probably the inside of Vecna's mind.
And then also the void is not one way all the time. You know, it. It can be a two way tool. And I'm not really sure how that works. Right.
Because like Billy is able to manipulate the tool and, and weaponize it against Elle, but she can also spy on Mike and Lucas and Dustin in later seasons talking. So. Oh, I guess Dustin wasn't there. It was Mike, Lucas and Will. But she can.
Yeah, because that was when Dustin was in his fields, so he was off with Steve. But yeah, I think that, that people get confused about this. So we just want to note it. The void is very distinct from the Upside Down.
They are two different places. El is not entering the Upside down when she's in the Void. She can use the void to look for people.
And it appears that she can use the void just like you said, like that. Like the flea on the typer, which means that she can weave in and out of dimensions psychically. Just psychically.
She cannot physically manifest herself in other places.
Paul:Yeah, it's a good, good, good call out. Good distinction.
Paul:So what do you. I mean, so as we close out, what are your takeaways?
Paul:What are your takeaways for this, for this, this season? Because we're closing season one.
Andrea:I mean, my big, my. One of my. The biggest takeaways I had was sort of about the way that like, trauma plays a role in this whole series really.
But we have this trauma that creates the gate to begin with. Right. It was Elle's trauma. Tore a hole through that gate. It actually ripped a literal hole between dimensions.
We have the, the trauma of Hopper's loss that really propels him into saving Will and motivates him. And we have the foreshadowing of Will's trauma. Will is back and he's trying to act upbeat.
You know, they're having Thanksgiving and he's putting on this brave face and he excuses himself to go to the Bathroom. And when he coughs up that slug, it isn't just a reminder that he was infected by the Upside Down.
It's a reminder that this experience he had is not going to go away easily. He can't just pretend. He can't just pretend his way through it. So to me, those are the big takeaways.
And I think that sort of theme of trauma comes back in a big way in season four.
Paul:100%.
Andrea:And season three, too. Right? Billy's trauma is what made him the big bad of season three. And then trauma is all over season four.
All of the deaths in season four are that Vecna does have to do with those people experiencing a trauma, be it their own fault or not, and him exploiting that trauma. So I think that there's a real theme that just weaves through the whole series about trauma.
Clearly, the duffers think that trauma is an extremely important thing in terms of how it influences who we become in our identities. And so they've kind of woven that through the whole story.
Paul:I agree. I also want to. Just as we were sitting here, it made me think about.
Because you were talking about all the trauma in season four, and I just thought about season four and FECA's giving me Freddy Krueger a little bit.
Paul:He's giving me Freddy Krueger. I'm like, whoa, wait a second. This has, like that.
Andrea:Totally the countdown and. Yeah, totally. Yeah, they were. I'm sure they were going for that because it definitely gives that.
Paul:Yeah, for sure.
Andrea:Do, like, do younger folks really know about Nightmare on, like that?
Paul:I don't know if you're a horror fan, if you're not a horror fan and that, you know, I don't really.
Paul:It's funny, this stage, I don't really watch horror movies all that often, but.
Paul:When I was younger, I was.
Paul:I was. I watched quite a bit. But when I was, like, in my teenage years, it was like, all the rage. Right. And then, like, we were even younger.
Paul:I think we're younger than that.
Paul:When I, like, got you to watch Nightmare on Elm street.
Andrea:Again, we weren't talking about my trauma, but.
Paul:Yeah, exactly.
Andrea:No, but I think I feel like it went kind of out of fashion those. And maybe they're still making movies and they just don't do as well.
They don't break through to the mainstream, which, like, I fully agree with my girl Lizzo. A lot of things don't break through. They gotta. They gotta hit break through the algorithm. So it seems. But it seems like Saw is a bigger franchise.
The thing that people would connect to. But the size of Freddy Krueger when we were kids, all the way through adulthood, that was him and Mike Myers were like the big bad.
Paul:And Jason.
Andrea:Jason. Oh, gosh. And Jason Voorhees. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So those were how we experience horror.
And, you know, the duffers are about my age, so I'm assuming that that. But totally. Vecna is definitely giving Freddy Krueger.
Paul:Definitely giving Freddy Krueger vibes for sure.
Paul:Well, all right. That's going to do it. Thank you for joining us. We are wrapping up season one of Stranger Things.
We'll be back next episode to continue with the first half of season two. And we're just so happy to be here, enjoying it. Check us out on all of our socials. Kinfolk pod on Instagram. Kin folklore pod on on Twitter.
Also Tik Tok, you can go ahead and hit us up on email kinfolklore gmail.com and just stay connected with us and we will see you next time.
Andrea:Bye, everyone.
