Episode 11
Kinfolklore: Stranger Things (Pre-Finale Volume 2 Takes)
Welcome back to Kinfolklore, where Andrea and Paul dive into the fantasy and sci-fi worlds we love. Few shows capture that blend of nostalgia, terror, and friendship quite like Stranger Things. This episode was recorded before the finale and covers Andrea and Paul's quick thoughts after the release of Volume 2
Transcript
Welcome back to Kin Folklore. Today we are casually opening up portals to the abyss, because that's what we do now. That's normal.
And we'll also be unpacking the emotional chaos that is volume two of Stranger Things season five. I'm Andrea.
Paul:And I'm Paul. And we are doing things a little bit differently than usual, you know, since there's a very short window between volume two and the finale.
And it also happens to land in the middle of the holiday season, which means a lot of us, thanks to Matt and Ross, Duffer and Netflix. Jeez. Are watching this in stolen moments, sitting with our thoughts and not quite ready to jump straight into end of series predictions.
So instead of a full recap, we wanted just to pause, reflect, and come on the mic and tell you what we're thinking.
Andrea:We're going to talk through 10 of our observations that stood out about the characters, the themes, and the emotional direction of the story.
So if you have watched season five episodes five through seven, AKA volume two, and you're feeling reflective or extremely stressed, because that's how I'm feeling about what comes next, you are in the right place. Our full breakdown and analysis of the last four episodes will come in the new year.
Paul:But do not fear. Kin Folklore will have adult content. So if you're here for a side mission to Mr. Clark's late night rendezvous with the librarian.
Yes, the librarian, who may or may not. Shush, snookums. When he gets a little loud in the sack, then you've come to the right place. Let's go.
Andrea:Murray's like, there are way too many, like, sex jokes and not enough kissing on this show. Like, I don't understand why these teenagers are not making out all the time at all.
Hopper and Joyce barely embrace, and there's just all these sex jokes.
Paul:But think about this. You know what Mr. Clark attracts. Like, he's a man of science. Of course he went with the librarian. Him and the librarian were bound to get together.
Andrea:Was that the same. Was that the same librarian that Hopper left on Red?
Paul:Yeah, yeah.
Andrea:Who's the same librarian that Hopper ghosted.
Paul:In fact, they are one of the same. Yes, they are one of the same. She also was very helpful to the party. You know.
Andrea:She was.
Paul:She was.
Andrea:She's been helpful a couple of times.
Paul:100%. 100%. Oh, man. All right, so let's talk about, you know, we wanted to come and just kind of talk about some of our observations from volume two.
There are mixed things out there in the fandom, but we're going to focus on, like, the things that we're feeling, the observations that we saw and kind of talk about some of our. Our. Our things. We love things. Grievances, all of it. So I think we should start. Let's start with 11 storyline.
You know, I think it's like, really appropriate that 8 has shown back up because her. Her storyline, where we really saw Elle's storyline turn a corner into her. Into her finding herself, her powers.
Other thing was during that particular season and that episode, and, you know, it seems like it's centered on El finding agency and making choices about family court, her old family versus her found family and the family that has become her family. Obviously, the origin story is with Terry and Aide and. And Brenner and the lab and. And. But she has found this new reality. What do you.
What were your kind of takeaways with where we find Elle and what she's kind of going through?
Andrea:So we've talked extensively offline how.
I don't particularly love what they've done with El this season, mostly just because El has been separated for much of the season from the other kids. She spent most of this season with Hopper so far, and they resolved that. Right. Everybody. We're back in the.
Everybody has come together, but I just really didn't like that El had that separate arc in the first four episodes. That said, I do think that this is one of her unresolved storylines. Right. This is one of her arcs that is unresolved, that she is still.
She still cared about Brenner right when he died. She still has some attachment to the lab, to the family that she had there, despite how toxic it was.
And there are a lot of character mirrors in this season. So you have Vecna and Will, who are essentially mirrors of each other. You have Holly and Max, and you have 11 and Kali.
And while I particularly don't love what they're doing with Kali, I do think that. I think they're setting up a choice.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:El will have to make a choice between doing what Kali wants her to do and letting her. The things that she can't change about herself. The things that are, like.
I don't want to use the word innate, because on this show, that's like a whole thing. Not even. I just. I like. I can't even.
Paul:Wizard, sorcerer. The wizard or the sorcerer.
Andrea:I deeply related to Hopper when they were like DD and he was like, Jesus Christ. But like, she. El cannot change that she was created. She cannot change that someone used her as a weapon.
She cannot change that she created, sent Henry to Dimension X or the Abyss or whatever. And she cannot change that. She has powers. She has them. She can try to suppress them, but that's all she. She has the powers.
And so I think El is going to have to make a choice between going through with this suicide pact that Kali has, which I think might be a fake out. Like, I have a theory that that's the whole thing is a fake out, because I don't think we saw their entire conversation and.
And her and Mike and Hopper and Will and Joyce and Jonathan and all these people who are important to her as well.
Paul:Yeah. And I think it's really interesting because you brought up the mirror of her and 8.
But I think that this action, this idea that 8 is kind of bringing in about, like, you know, making a choice independent from what the plan is about, taking herself out is an exact mirror to why she was upset with Hopper in the beginning of, you know, the first volume. Well, she's upset with them in the second volume. But what was heartbreaking in the first volume of him deciding to do that when they found Eight.
So I think. I think there are a lot of parallels in how characters are addressing these different things. And I agree with you.
I think that it will come down to a choice, you know, around how Elsie's, you know, what the value of her life is, what the value of, you know, saving everyone else is over herself. And I think she can. I think both things can happen. We've talked about this. I think, like, it's going to be.
Andrea:I.
Paul:Think I want, as a fan, as we've spoken about before, for her to live and to go on and to not have sacrificed herself. I could see them doing that. I would hate it. But I think you have to leave all things on the table. I could also see.
I think with you, I'm less likely to think it's going to happen because of how heavily handed they've been in saying, hey, this is what you should do. This is what you should do. So I think they wouldn't do that so much if they thought that that was where this was gonna go, you know?
Andrea:Yeah. I mean, El could still die, but I don't think it's going to be because she's decided that she doesn't deserve to live.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:But I do think that it will be harder, given the conversations within the fandom right now. Do you think it'll be harder if they kill El anyway, for people to walk away understanding it wasn't for that reason?
Which is why I'm inclined to think they won't do it. I do think there's a possibility there will be a fake out death.
They reminded us that Kali can make people see things and that she's already made Dr. K and Ayers and all these other people see things. So it's very possible that Kali will create a fake out death that will. Most characters will think is real, but isn't.
It's also possible that Kali is on a mission of self erasure. And that's one of the things that we will talk about later. Yeah, but I. I don't know.
I'm inclined to feel like El has a pretty good chance right now, but it's always been 50. 50.
Paul:Yeah, it's always been. It has. And I think we went into this kind of talking about that and unpacking that and how we felt about it.
And, you know, another thing we went into was talking about, you know, we. We spent a lot of time with the Lost Sister episode and kind of talking about it and how differently we viewed it with all of that.
And so Kali's back. I almost. I hesitate.
Not really front and center because I'm like, she was here for like two seconds, and then they sideline her for like, most of the action, which seems kind of weird. But she is back with the revelation.
Andrea:She has some significant moments, though, between her and El and her and Hopper.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:And Mike, I do think the way that Hopper is, like, she gets snuffed out as soon as he's like. As soon as soon as I think something's wrong, she's getting snuffed out. I was like, Hopper's really become, like, embodied his violence.
Like, this is.
Paul:Yo. He's on. He's on one right now. He's like straight, like, the. The man is. He's unhinged. He's unhinged version of Hopper right now. It's kind of crazy.
Andrea:Per.
Paul:Usual for the usual. Exactly. I mean, she. So.
So Kali comes back with a revelation that I find fascinating, that there's something happening in the upside down that Dr. K and the military are restarting. They're just like Papa.
They're restarting Papa's experiment and basically using Kali's blood to try to start the process of creating other children like Kali and El. And this is where we get the reveal.
People would have already known this, but this is where show watchers that only watch the show get the reveal that all of these kids were made using Henry's blood. Right. So, you know, I got a lot of feelings about this. I thought that.
I think you and me sent some stuff back and forth in texts that made me think about us a little differently, even in the last 24 hours. But I think where I'm landing is it's crazy that she's the only person that knows this is happening. So we have to.
We have to believe that Kali is a reliable narrator as she's doing this, and I don't know that I do. Right. So, like, I don't necessarily believe everything that's coming out of Kali's mouth. I never have. I mean, even.
Even though I thought we were gonna see her again, I think even in the Lost Sister episode, she was fucking with Elle's head about why she should stay and why she should go on this revenge mission and what they should do. So I. I don't know that I believe.
I don't know that I. I don't know that we can say 100% that there are women in the Upside down being experimented on, but that is her theory, and that's what she's saying is happening.
Andrea:Yeah, I think that we. I think the conversation between K and Sullivan could kind of back it up. Right.
Because Dr. K clearly is clearly saying that the whole point of this is to fight the Soviets and that the plan was to have the demos fighting the Soviets in Russia. And so I wonder if the plan was always to create the children to control. Like, it's all working together.
Like, the children are supposed to control the monsters and fight the Soviets. So I think there's a little bit of a backing in what Dr. K says. I.
But I also, you know, I kind of got into it with someone on threads last night because they were asserting that the plan would kill the pregnant women as well and the children. And I'm like, actually, we don't know that. They could be dead already.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:We don't know when Kali saw that. She doesn't give us a time period. She's. They've had her for some time.
Paul:Right.
Andrea:We don't know how long they've had her. But I guess my.
I mean, the overarching thing here is that the system that led to all of this, Henry becoming Vecna, all of it is the system that was built to fight a war that was cold. A war that was cold, that was just about amping up the threat. It wasn't actually a war.
I mean, obviously, wars were fought during the Cold War, but it was a proxy war. And so I think the show is reminding us constantly that Brenner is actually the big bad here. I just don't think that Brenner is the only big bad.
I think Brenner and his choices and having Ellen essentially create this wormhole. And I have a lot of questions about. I have some.
I just rewatched that scene where Dustin is explaining it and I'm like, some of this like, doesn't fully make sense to me. And maybe they'll make sense of it for us.
But that's what created this dynamic where everyone that we care about is fighting for their life and fighting for the world.
Paul:And somehow Sullivan's still alive. So I'm glad we reluctantly spilled some. I'm so mad we. Even the. Even spilling any of the terrible ass liquor was bad enough.
I was so upset that he, when I saw him. I've never been more upset that a person was alive. I was like, Paul, what is wrong with you? I was like, Sullivan should not be alive.
Something should have like wrecked him.
Andrea:Couldn't believe, you know, why this frustrates me. And we don't. I know we're not, we're not doing our full recap. But like so many people are like, well, Owens story is over. And I'm like, if Sullivan.
They were basically like, you can assume that Owens is dead. If Sullivan got burnt up crispy style.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:And is. But didn't die on screen and is still alive, then Owens, who wasn't even injured badly, is probably still alive.
Paul:Owens is dead. Who is saying, I assume that they couldn't get that actor again for this season to do barely anything. I assume that that's what I, I.
Andrea:Think that's probably the best assumption is they just like, they didn't, they didn't bother to hire Paul Reiser. Like, I just think that's probably the most.
Paul:Paul Reiser is not like, not a. I mean he's not maybe what you would say a list. But he's not another. He's a very well known actor. Recognizable, recognizable actor. Exactly right.
Like, they just were like, yeah, we're not going to use Paul Reiser for like two scenes. Or maybe we'll be wrong and maybe, maybe we will.
Andrea:Right there. There's supposedly. And I don't. I apologize in advance, folks. Sometimes we both read a lot of the duffers interviews and we watch them too.
But sometimes that gets muddled with a little bit of like stuff fans are saying. So I think what I read was that the epilogue was going to be 40 minutes. My guess is Owens will appear somewhere there if they're going to.
If they were able to get him at all.
Paul:Well, the epilogue is going to be 40 minutes.
Andrea:Yeah.
Which means that we're getting an hour and 20 minutes of, like, real episode and then 40 minutes of epilogue, which tracks with the previous season's finale, Right?
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:The epilogue was 27 minutes or something like that. Like, it was quite long. Okay. So they have a lot to do and not that much time.
Paul:They do. They really, really do. I think they've done some things I thought were important to do. I'm really happy they got out of the way.
The Jonathan and Nancy stuff, the Jancy stuff being out of the way of, like, that's not needed to be done in the epilogue. Really. Truly.
Andrea:And I think it's so important to resolve the love triangle before we go into the final action.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:Because it's a distraction. I mean, it basically just was a distraction. Nancy essentially says the whole stuff with Steve is a distraction.
Paul:Yeah. And she's not. She's. She's not trying to have six little nuggets and she's not trying to listen to the Clash. Yeah, she's. She's.
She's not trying to listen to the Clash. You know, she's just. She's not about that life. She. She's. She's. It. That was like a.
That was a deep cut, though, like, when, like, that's the song that literally saved your brother's life, like, listening to that song. And she's like, I hate listening to the Clash. I was like, damn, Nancy.
Andrea:Okay. But he threw out sweater.
Paul:He did throw out. Yeah. That's rough.
Andrea:He threw out her sweater. He threw out a sweater.
Paul:It's rough.
Andrea:Just quickly on that scene. I rewatched that scene many times because there has been a lot of confusion about it. I went and looked at the transcript. I understand the confusion.
I really do.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:I was confused. Initially. I asked one of our friends, hey, are they broken up? Or they just recommit? And so I understand the confusion.
However, despite all of that, it is one of the better scenes in this season. The dialogue is really actually quite good. And they. They. The acting is so solid for two people who are still very much together.
Paul:Yeah. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Andrea:I think one of the reasons that the scene reads differently to different people is because Natalia Dwyer and Charlie Heaton have so much on screen chemistry now. But where was that chemistry three seasons ago? You know, So I think it pays.
Paul:To be together and hang out and live in the same spot. And, like, you know.
Andrea:Yes. They seem. There's real. Like, there's real love between those two characters, even if it's not romantic love anymore.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:And I love that in the scenes after that, they're not acting any differently.
Paul:Yeah, no, no, no. I think.
Because the thing that always hurt, the thing that we saw even earlier in volume one, when Steve wants to go to the hospital with the flowers, and Jonathan's like, chill, let's stay on the mission. That's what Nancy will want, is that, you know, Steve was always the grand romantic gesture guy.
That's how he started up coming to the house with the flowers. He went in, like. And he. You know, he. And sometimes it was a lot of big swings and misses. He kind of talks about that when he went.
When he talks about how he started crawling backwards and explained to Nancy who he is as a person. But I think Jonathan has always understood Nancy as a friend, first and foremost. Like, they've been friend.
Like, I think Steve and Nancy became closer friends in season four. I think Jonathan and Nancy were friends earlier in this whole run of shows, and now they're realizing that that friendship is enough.
That it doesn't necessarily have to be romantic. And I think that is the beauty in their. Their story and why they still have a chemistry. Because they're going to be friends. Whether they're dating.
Since they're not dating anymore, they're still going to be friends. It will never go away. And I think they say that in the conversation, you know. You know, that bond is gonna be there.
Andrea:Yeah, that bond is definitely going to be there forever. And I agree with you. The vibe I got from my rewatch of season one was that Nancy and Jonathan were friends when they were younger, maybe.
Cause their brothers were friends. And then they drifted apart as they got older. And so it's almost like revisiting that friendship. And then it turned into something romantic.
Mainly because Murray, you know, Murray pushed it.
Paul:Yeah, Yeah. I mean, listen, Murray knows a thing or two about a thing or two about these pairings. He'll be getting them together.
He has not gotten together one other pairing. But we are happy that they are back reunited. We'll come back to some of the other stuff, but can we please talk about this Max and Lucas scene?
Oh, my God. I love that scene. I love it. I love that scene. That scene of them coming back together and her making it back. Absolutely amazing.
And then seeing the commentary of Maya Hawke about how many. That. That they did that in one to two takes, maybe tops. That, like, that was. Like, how they did was. That is.
I just watched it again and teared up Again, like, it is a beautiful scene. Like, both of them. And it's funny, too, because it's so honest. Like, she's all like, are you sick of the song? And he's all like, yes, I'm so fucking.
And listen, Kate, we love you, but, man, I'm not.
Andrea:I am now sick of the song.
Paul:I am now sick of the song.
Andrea:I am not now sick of it, too. I do not blame Lucas. It's a great scene. I think it's important.
I think what's not necessarily getting lost, but I think that there's a clue in there which, you know, comes across in her conversation with Holly as well, which is that the song which we've been talking about, everyone's been talking about how, like, the music is what tethers people to. To their memory, to their connection. Actually, just the reminder of the connection is enough. And I think that's going to come into play later.
Paul:How do you feel about that, though? Because I have some feelings about that.
Andrea:I don't love it for a couple of reasons. The same way I don't love the wormhole explanation as it's being laid out. I have no issue with the upside down being a wormhole.
I think that's totally fine. It's appropriate. I've been loving the diagrams that fans have put together.
Love it when it was created, how it was created, how Dustin is reading it in Brenner's diary. That one I got questions about.
Paul:Yeah, I don't love it for a couple of reasons. I would have liked it to have come even though the portal is opened by Holly.
I would have liked the realization to have come from Holly, if that makes sense. In the sense that.
Because I think that Max has had a certain understanding of how this works for so long, and while she could feel Lucas's hand and all the connection and everything we're told as an audience when we're watching this in season four that, you know, music has a different connection to the brain. This is why Henry's dad didn't particularly like would sang the song and was able to be okay.
This is why Max was able to come back out from where she was. So I think to hand wave that completely, like, wasn't my favorite. But I do love that they add to it that, hey, it's not just the song.
It is the song and the feeling that the song evokes or the feeling being the thing that can open the portal, get you back to yourself. I like that. I love that lore, but I just wish they would have Introduced it a little bit differently because I don't think.
I think to kind of introduce it the way they did almost makes it feel like what we understood about what music did for them and the presence of music was. Was incorrect. You know what I mean? And I don't think that. I think they're making two different points here.
Maybe that's me getting caught up in detail, but I just kind of. I would have liked them to stick to the role that music played in this.
And maybe, you know, I'm a musician, so I love music, so I'm like, hey, I want music to play a role.
Andrea:I think this is a.
That, you know, when we do our longer episode, we'll talk extensively about, which is like, you start to see the machinations of the writers in the writers room. I think that they didn't have time to create a musical moment for Holly in the same way. And then it was like, who would play it for her? And the.
She's in Dimension X, Right?
Paul:Exactly.
Andrea:And so they had to find kind of a way around that. Like, we know that running up that hill opens up a portal for Max. They don't have that for Holly. They gave her a song, but then who would have.
If her body is with Vecna, who would have played this song? So I think it was a way around it.
It doesn't bother me that much because when I think of the connection I have to certain songs, it's entirely about the memories they evoke. And so I think that for me, that's. It's fine. But I totally agree with you.
Like, there's a few lore things like that that we can talk about in more detail later that are bugging me. Like, they're. And they're only going to bug, like a certain part of the fandom and they're going to bug the people who.
I think they're gonna bug the true sci fi and fantasy fans the most. I think the casual.
So people who enjoy the show cause it's a good story but aren't particularly into supernatural world building will be less bugged about it. The same way that the Game of Thrones problems bug those folks less than they bugged the folks who really like this type of story and genre. So.
Yes, there. I hear you. It's not my thing, but I have a few things.
Paul:Yeah, yeah. I mean, listen, Max. Saying what she says in the way that Sadie delivers it of all I ever needed was you is. Is. It's enough to wash it away.
Like, I just, like, literally was like, okay, Cool. Put it over, like, you know, like, so I'm fine. You know.
Andrea:Can we just talk about Vicky having a line in the middle of that scene and how I wouldn't have been able to deliver it, like, there. It's such an emotional scene. And then Vicky's like, hi, nurse. Here. Your eyes and limbs don't work properly, but it will be okay.
I was just like, I'm impressed at everyone's ability to kind of keep it together, to be honest.
Paul:Yeah, yeah. No, it is impressive. I think that they all. I think it was amazing to see.
Maya was in awe of, like, what she did, and Sadie was very, very much, like, you know, in that clip. Just, like, she's like, wow, that's so kind of you. And, like, very. It's just. I love their chemistry. I love all those people's chemistry. They're very.
Andrea:I love when the older actors complement the younger actors.
Paul:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andrea:Because Sadie did that with Nell.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:The. The girl who plays Holly as well, where she complimented her ability, her poise, and her ability to, like, really be in a moment.
And I was just like, that's so nice. And that kind of takes us to the. The. About Max and Holly's mentoring, which, like, the.
More I've spent time in this, like, watching the interviews and reading about the relationships is such an important theme for not just this show, but for in story, but also for the show overall.
Paul:Agreed.
Andrea:Finn used to follow around Joe and now remind me of the name of the kid who plays Derek.
Paul:Oh, gosh.
Andrea:Oh, my goodness. It will come to me. How can we forget this kid?
Paul:I love that kid. He's great.
Andrea:But he now follows around Finn, and you have all of these actors who had been working together for a decade with Winona Ryder, who was a child actress herself. And so I really loved how Holly and Max got that moment of mentorship inside the show.
Paul:Jake Connelly. Sorry, I just found it. Jake Connolly. Jake. Yeah.
Andrea:But I love that Holly and Max got that moment of mentorship inside the story.
And I found it especially beautiful because mentoring isn't just about what you give to the younger person, or it doesn't even have to be a younger person, less experienced person, because you can mentor someone at work or in a hobby, and they might be older than you, but the less experienced person, it's not just about what you give to them. It's also about what you get from them. And Max had essentially lost all hope.
She thought she was going to be stuck in this prison forever, and Holly does not let her Give up hope when Max is like, nah, we good? 11 is coming for us. Holly's like, yeah, so Henry is crazy. Yeah.
Paul:And I.
Andrea:And I believe him.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:And so I think we should maybe do something to help ourselves. And I just thought there was, like, I. There's plenty to say about.
About their casual stroll up the hill back to their bodies and the timing of that conversation.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:But I loved the. Once you strip all that stuff away, the actual conversation is, like, really beautiful. Holly is doing. I mean, I'm sorry.
Max is doing for Holly exactly what Mike tried to do for her earlier in the season. So it has really beautiful symmetry that way, too.
Paul:Yeah. Yeah. And I. And I don't. I think where I land with that conversation is I don't have a problem with the content of the conversation.
I have a problem of. With the timing.
I feel like they were together so many times that we could have got parts of that conversation so that there could have been more of a shorthand in that moment. So it didn't feel as long. But you and I talked offline about it. I honestly think, you know, getting a little meta is that. Honestly, it's more.
When I was watching it for the second time, I was like, oh, this feels more like a play device. And I feel like, you know, the writer of this episode obviously wrote the play.
And I think, like, sometimes you write things for one medium and it works, and you write things for another medium, and it doesn't. I think if that was a play, we all stand up at the end of that as they're walking off, and we all love it. There's no.
There's no part of us that would be like, oh, my God, you can't. But in a movie, you just. Or in a TV show, you want to see things.
You don't really want people to explain them to you, and I think that's why the dialogue has to do that as you're moving through. And it's a lot. It was a lot to do. It was.
It was mentor Holly, get Max to back into her body, explain that there's another way to be brave, Explained that there's another way to open a portal, Open the second portal. That's a lot to do in that little span of time when somebody's supposed to be after you inside their mind.
So I think, like, you know, I don't want to get super critical of it. I think, overall, a lot rides on the finale, but overall, I still. I will always love this show. There's no I.
There's there's so much good in this show right now, even with some of the problems that people are discussing that, you know, I. I just. You know, I'm. We're not in the same place.
I will say this, that I. I don't feel like in the same place that I was at going into the last episode of Game of Thrones that I. That. That I am with this show. Like, this show does not feel the same.
Andrea:Not even close.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:Not even close.
Paul:Yeah. Agreed.
Andrea:But I do think the fandom is acting a little similar.
Paul:Yeah. Because they're triggered. You know, like, this is what happens.
Andrea:But I. Not even close. I. I agree with you.
Second watch does make some problems more apparent, but it also made me appreciate some of these moments more because I had a moment to. It's a lot to process. And, like, that's the other thing about this drop calendar.
People miss things because their executive functioning was sundowning for the day. Like, this is a 8pm drop on one of the busiest days of the year for a lot of people.
And I myself didn't realize how much I missed on my first watch until I watched it a second time, and I was like, oh, this conversation that I was like, this needs to happen. Should have happened. It did happen. It just didn't happen in, like, you know, in a monologue moment or it didn't happen when, like, there's.
There's a bunch of other stuff happening on screen, or it happened exactly the way that you wanted, like, the Holly and Max stuff to happen, which is. It happened more casually as people were traveling from one location to the next. They just had a brief conversation.
But a lot of it is working better for me on rewatch than it worked initially.
Paul:Yeah. I think I said this to you offline.
You know, I'll say it here, too, is after watching it the first time, I took a minute, then I watched it a second time. And you and I, you know, you were a little bit behind in your watch, obviously.
Cause the holidays and all the things, and we didn't get to talk about it right away. Cause I was obviously not gonna spoil anything.
But in the time that I had to just sit with it, I think I started realizing that there was a couple of things that were happening for me as a person that watches the show, all the theory crafting that we do as fans, I needed to let that die a little bit and just watch the show as the show and not worry so much about the different theories I had read or the things that were in my brain or Things I wanted to happen. What did the creators who made the show, what did they put on the screen and what happened? And so that part of it was. Was, like, important.
And then I thought there was, like, you know, a part of me that was kind of like, just like, wait, do these things make sense to me? Because we are still the fan base that, like, was upset because they told us a five minute preview and we were like, give us our 18 seconds. Right?
Like, that is the. That is the level of nerd that is involved in this fan base. So, like, I wanted to make sure things, like, made sense to me and lined up.
And, you know, there's some things that don't, some things that do. But then I think it ultimately ended, like, I ended in a. I got into a place where I really thought about what this drop was, and I said this to you.
I really think that it was about quiet bravery, a different type of bravery, a bravery that isn't demonstrative, but an emotional bravery. And I think that it's hard to show that. It's hard to show that on screen. I think, like, the way that we get into.
We're about to talk a little bit about, but, like, when you look at what Nancy and Jonathan did, that's brave. When you look at the conversation that Holly and Max are having, that's a type of bravery.
And when you look at what the parents are going through, that's. That's a bravery. The things that.
And what they're saying about being able to, like, know how to balance wanting to be overprotective versus letting your kid and trusting your kid to be who they are in the world. The idea about. The idea about, like, what eleven is dealing with, with. With Kali and how she. How she's gonna have.
She's not quite exhibited what's gonna happen, but I think, like, that's a level of her managing all of that while also managing finding Will while also managing what she's dealing with with Mike and Hopper. She is being brave because she's moving forward still, like, in. In a lot of ways. So I just think, like, they really put something together.
When I watched it for the second and third time that I thought was, it's remarkable to see these people having these. And I can't forget Dustin and Steve, right? Like, Dustin and Steve.
That moment where, I mean, where Dustin finally breaks down and says, I can't lose you, not again. Don't let. I mean, this is a. These are brave moments. These are emotionally brave moments.
And I think we are so Used to and want so much in an action or a sci fi show to see, like, the action and get to the shit. Right. But I think, like, these moments will pay off, hopefully in the finale because they needed to do that work.
Andrea:Yeah. I think that they've. They've done all the emotional arcs for the most part. I think what's left is Will standing up to Vecna and 11, making her.
And for the. I can't really think of another arc that is open.
You know, the Steve and Nancy arc is only resolved from Nancy's point of view, but I honestly don't think Steve cares right now.
Like, Steve is very focused on taking care of his people on his relationship with Dustin, so I'm assuming that conversation will happen off screen if it ever happens at all. But I think everyone else's arc is pretty much resolved. We're going into this with the can we defeat Vecna and what will that mean for our hero?
Like, our supercharged heroes? Right. Every single person we've been talking about since our first episode, that every single person in this story is brave.
Paul:Yeah. Yeah.
Andrea:Even the ones who think that they're cowards in story. Right. Like, both 11.
I mean, I'm sorry, both Will and Holly call them essentially call themselves cowards in story, but every single member of this group is brave in some way. Hats off, especially to Mr. Clark and Karen, who don't have a full picture, but are like, okay, what ups? I'm down. Let's do this.
And so I think that our big group of heroes, for the most part, their arcs are either resolved or we know how they'll likely play out. People might die, but their emotional arcs are resolved.
I think what's left on the table is that they created a new emotional arc for Elle and Wills, which is the one that I think, you know, one of the problems of this season is the pacing. And I think that they kicked all of the Will stuff into this season, and that turned out to be a mistake.
His story is so incredibly important, and I'm really glad they're telling it.
Paul:Yeah, I agree.
Andrea:And I happened to be a person who mostly liked Will until season four. Season four, Will was a Will that I was like, so you're not gonna stand up for your sister?
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:And that really annoyed me. But, like, Will's story, Will is in a group of people with really big personalities, and he does not have a big personality.
And so those other big personalities kind of drowned him out until now. The only thing I don't like about Will's story is the execution of it at this point.
And I wonder how much of that was a cowardice of the studio, of the writers and not wanting to have Will come out at an earlier time. Because to me, Will's coming out story should have been last season or maybe even. Well, season three, I think was still kind of too early.
But season four, it should have happened last season. Despite all that. I was dry eyed, Absolutely dry eyed. I got through the Max and Lucas scene. I got through the Holly and Max scene.
Not a tear had been shed until I got to Will's coming out and then it was over for me.
Paul:Yeah, it was. It's a beautiful scene.
Andrea:It was beautiful. Do I love that Will was forced into it? No, but I think that's how they have. That's how they had to explain the timing at the end. Essentially the end.
Literally the world is ending this evening.
Paul:Yeah. Yeah.
Andrea:They had to do an in story explanation for why it had to happen today and it couldn't wait until tomorrow. Which is the same reason, by the way, that Nancy and Jonathan had their discussion, because they were running out of time.
It was their unfinished business. And so I think that that's the in story explanation for why it had to happen at that time. Do I love that it was such a large group of people? No.
But as I said to you, I've had a few friends who have come out to very large groups of people at the same time. And that is an experience for some people. I'm not going to sit here and tell people what experience is valid and what isn't.
But I will tell you that when Will was having that conversation and the, and when the way Jonathan looked at him, I was, as an older sibling, I was a puddle on the ground.
Paul:Yeah. Yeah. And Jonathan's been trying to want him to have that conversation since for a while.
And I think definitely in season four, you felt Jonathan, that was like when they had that conversation in the kitchen while they're preparing the tank. I just think, like, he's been, you know, Jonathan is just. He's a ride or die for his brother. He's like, he's gonna go to hell. And I love that.
And, and I, and I just think, you know what I loved about. I agree with you with things you're saying. I, I wish it was a smaller group.
I also could see a moment where if you're trying to get everybody together in a battle and you have to have this with the group of people that you want to tell it to, to tell Some people just to stand outside, make it come across as if you're not giving them pertinent information to what they're about to run into, when it has nothing to do with that. He may have gamed that out as well, to be like, I need to talk to this whole group, you know, because I want.
But some of these people aren't as pertinent. I wish it was the smaller group. I wish it was the core group, you know? Like, I think I'm. I think the thing, though, that it answers.
I've heard a lot in commentary, you know, I want to talk about the story pieces of it where people are like, oh, well, why would he choose that moment?
Well, I think, like, what Will tells us in that dialogue is that, you know, Vecna's been torturing him with this information and this secret for the duration of this, it feels like, for a long time.
And I think, like, it was something that he knew he needed to do, because if not, if he frees himself up in that moment to be able to say, now Vecna can't use, I'm gonna have this moment that he's. Show me in my mind and see the reality of it. It's. It's going to be a different thing when he. When he battles Vecna again.
So I think it is important to who he is as a character and who he is as a per. And who he is. Who he is. This is who he is. So being authentically yourself, I think it's. There's never a bad time to do it, so I. I totally agree.
Andrea:And I think that's, like. I think that's one of the themes of this, which is that being seen being actually of season four, too. Being seen being heard, taking up space.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:Is part of survival here. And I think that they have set up that perfectly with Will and Holly. I think El is gonna grapple with that somewhat in the finale.
And I think that Kali's suicide plan is. Is supposed to be the opposite of that. Like, that's not. Obviously, that's not survival.
It's erasing yourself, saying that I don't deserve to be here, that I can't be here, that it's too dangerous for me to be here and think about. I'm thinking about all of the victims of some of the most unimaginable trauma that young people can experience.
And that's often how they feel, that it's that actually my presence, my existence, is bad for the people I care about. And so I'm confident that the show is not gonna take it in that direction.
But I do think that the fact that I think the fandom is being pretty mean to Kali, because actually, though, I've never felt how she's feeling. I understand, having seen what she's seen, how she could feel that way.
Paul:Yeah, for sure.
Andrea:And she. Unlike Elle, Kali got away for quite some time, and then she got caught again.
So what she's telling El is there's never any safety as long as they're chasing us.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:So my. My hope and desire is that they can figure out a way for them. It would be great if they could figure out a way for them both.
Paul:To.
Andrea:Survive and not be chased for the rest of their lives, but, you know, who knows if that would be possible?
Paul:Yeah, I agree. And I think it's very realistic.
I mean, you see Kali leading a group of people who followed her because they thought that she'd be able to help them and create belonging for them, and then all of them are murdered, and then she's taken, and now she's in this other group of people that Elle is, you know, assembled, and she doesn't know them, and she's assuming that, man, like, how they. She says they'll hunt you down, and they will kill Mike, and they will kill. Because she's just reading her own biography into Elle's story.
Andrea:And, you know, that's a legitimate point.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:We don't like it because we were fighting for Elle, but that's a legitimate point of view.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:That is. No matter what we do, they will find us. That's not. That's. Kali is not wrong for believing that.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:And quite frankly, if. If Kali and Hopper were in a different scenario, I don't think Hopper would disagree with it either. If it wasn't his daughter.
Paul:Yeah. Yeah. No, I. I could see that. And I. Yeah, I just. I think that it's very. It's just a fascinating thing, like, you know, to hear.
I think the thing that kind of raised everybody eyebrows when Kali's, like, referring to Henry as their brother and.
Andrea:Oh, yeah.
Paul:And you, like, look at it.
Andrea:I never even considered that. I was like, ew.
Paul:Yeah, I know. And it's. It's also fascinating because her. Her. Her brother is actually offering to fight, like, in the battle. Right. Like, you have Will.
That's like, yo, I'm gonna have her.
Andrea:Actual brother that, like, is part of her. Her. The family that she made for herself.
Paul:Yeah, exactly.
Andrea:So I. I'm curious, though, and I know we've. We've gone Long. So we should wrap up soon. But, like, if Kali is not in my, like, Pollyanna. Pollyanna.
Ish view actually going to, like, this is all a fake out. If she's actually an anti hero or an antagonist, do you think she's an antagonist or an anti hero for the military? For herself or for Vecna?
Paul:Yeah, we've. We've talked about this a little bit. If she is an anti hero, I think it is either. It's between. I don't think it's the military. I think it. She was.
She was very, like, vehemently trying to kill all those people that did it. So I think it would either be because it would be for Vec. It would be for Henry specifically, not Vecna, but for Henry, like.
Andrea:Well, right. She doesn't know that he's. That she wouldn't call him that.
Paul:Yeah. Right. So I think, like, she would. It would be for Henry. Um, it would be. I think it. I think it'd be for Henry.
I do have a little bit in the back of my mind that thinks like, that she. That she would do it for her, but I actually think the choice is going to be harder for her when it comes. I think that she does love Elle.
I think that she loves Elle. And I think that she may actually.
Maybe I'm wrong here, but I think it feels a little bit not like the duffer style to write a character who's like, you should kill yourself. You should kill yourself. You should kill yourself. And then they end up being the person who tries to take Elle out. I don't see that.
I think it's going to be the opposite. That she will try to save El in the hopes of fulfilling their ultimate plan of, like, wiping themselves out. And I think, like, that could go.
Go a wrong way, but that's. That's. I'm careful because I've. I declared theory bankruptcy just a mere two days ago.
Andrea:I mean, I too, have theory bankruptcy for the most part. I mean, we were right about a lot of things. We were just wrong about how they would be.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:How they would play out. I go back and forth.
I think it's a more interesting story for Kali to have some kind of weird relationship with Henry, to maybe even be trauma bonded to Henry. And I just want to note a lot of discourse has been saying that Nancy and Jonathan are trauma bonded. They are not. They have shared trauma.
Those are not the same thing, folks. Trauma bond is a bond is an unhealthy bond between a victim of abuse and the abuser.
And it's possible that there is actually one between Henry and Kali that we aren't aware of. And the only reason I think of that is because of some of her own dialogue, which is like, I know everything about Henry, ma'.
Paul:Am.
Andrea:How.
Paul:Yeah, we just.
Andrea:We just learned about Henry. You left the lab before El was eight years old, so. Excuse me.
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:How do you. So. So I got questions about that. I agree the military seems unlikely. It does seem that she hates the military. But I also think she could have her.
Alter her own alternative moment. Ulterior motives. And it's really bugging the. Her dialogue and Hopper's dialogue are bugging me the most.
And if I had more time, I would be, you know, I would be down the rabbit hole.
Paul:Yeah, yeah.
Andrea:But her dialogue and Hopper's dialogue to Joyce about how something doesn't fit together and he's missing a piece of the puzzle makes me think that the piece of the puzzle that's missing is a human element. Because why would. If it were a piece that was supernatural, that dialogue would have been given to Dustin or to Lucas or Mike or whoever. Or Will.
The fact that Hopper's, like, something's missing makes me think there's a human element that we haven't considered yet. And now I'm like. I'm a little bit obsessed with what that is, but that's.
I'm not going to posit any theories on this podcast because I do not want to have to deal with being wrong. I mean, I don't mind being wrong. I actually was delighted that we were wrong.
Paul:Yeah, me too. Me too. I'm so happy that we haven't seen time travel yet. Like, I'm so happy that it hasn't been. I pray that it just doesn't happen. I pray. But it.
I was so happy to be wrong about that. I was like, oh, my gosh, it could still happen.
Andrea:They got enough time for time travel, but I'm grateful that they surprised us in a lot of ways. That said, I have a theory, but I'm not going to share it.
Paul:Yeah. I think that I have some theories, too. And, you know, the good news is we're going to find out. We'll find out.
We had to find out just a couple of days, so it's not like it's going to be. It's going to be long for us to find out what happens. I hope everyone enjoys that. Is going to the theater. That's going to be cool to see that. Yeah.
Anything else that we want to, like, clean up before we go, is there anything that you're thinking we could talk about?
Andrea: hear this episode, it will be: Paul:Yeah. Crazy, crazy, crazy. Here we are. Well, Happy New Year and enjoy. Enjoy going into this new year and. And what we got ahead.
We have a lot of things ahead because, you know, it's content Armageddon again. They're dropping everything again.
Andrea:Every, like, I don't know, 18 months. We're like, there's too much to cover, and then there's nothing to cover for a while.
Paul:Yeah, no doubt. No doubt. So it'll be cool. It will be cool. And I'm super excited for the finale of this show. It has been quite a ride. I love it. Yeah.
I will say that I remember what I was going to say. Not a theory, but the Duffers do have a tell that when it's something important, they give you a hint before they reveal it later down the.
They have a tell all times.
So that thing that you said earlier, that's what I was about to say to what you said about, oh, there's something that's missing, and there's this and that and that. They do that a lot. They do that a lot in everything that they write. So I'm going with. I agree with you. There is a.
For my Star wars heads, there's a Lando Calrissian moment that's coming. Like, Lando is coming. He's gonna flip the screen. There's a moment coming, I feel. So that'll be my halfway theory. And that's what we'll end with.
That's what I'll end with.
Andrea:Yeah. I think that's. I think we're missing some things that Holly is going to have to put together for the group. Right?
Paul:Yeah.
Andrea:Like, she. I mean, Max, I guess, was there, too, but the briefcase is obviously a moment. What was in that? What is in that briefcase? Yeah, that's.
But I don't think that's what Hopper is talking about. I think Hopper is talking about a piece of the puzzle that we just. That hasn't been revealed to us yet. And I think it's probably a human piece.
Yeah, I agree.
Paul:I totally agree.
Andrea:I think there's gonna be supernatural twists, but I also think there's gonna be like. Like, we still don't really have much. We don't really know much about Dr. K. And that could be a piece of the puzzle too.
Paul:No clue about who Dr. K is. Where'd she come from? Who is she?
Andrea:Yeah, I'm. Oh, one last thing. Do you think a curse is gonna. Is gonna betray her? Because I do.
Paul:Yeah, definitely.
Andrea:I. I think so. Before, I was like, they should have killed this guy. Now I'm like, I think keeping him alive was smart because he's gonna turn on her.
Paul:Yeah. Yeah.
Andrea:So. All right. No more theories. We can't even get off this podcast about giving theories. It's crazy.
Paul:Our brain is. Our brain is. All right, so enjoy the. The finale. We will be back in the beginning of the year to.
To cover the finale and really the rest of the show to close it out. I just wanted to talk about a few things, and. Yeah, and then we'll. We'll let you guys know about all the things we'll be covering after that.
But enjoy the finale. Happy New Year, and we will see you on the other side.
Andrea:Bye, everyone.
